Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | "Sons" of perdition? | NT general Archive 1 | Love Fountain | 28775 | ||
Dear Tim, Happy New Year and thanks for your response. I have never thought of Judas as the son of perdition because of the fact that only satan is condemned to eternal death in the Scripture(John 16:11) and we are even told how he is to die the death of fire from within him that turns him into ashes(Eze 28:18). I believe this because scripture says so and the definiton of perdition is described as eternal damnation. I do not believe the reference to the son of perdition in John 17:12 is Judas and I don't believe he is in hell, because Scripture does not say so in a direct manner. The answer to John 17:12 is in understanding the whole chapter of John 17. The chapter is our Lord praying to the Father and in verse 20 He says,"My prayer is not for them(disciples) alone".(NIV) In John 17, Jesus is praying for all believers. If we read John 17:12, Jesus says," ....None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction..."(NIV)(aka son of perdition). I put great emphasis towards "THE ONE", because the ONLY ONE already judged to eternal death is satan within the Scripture(as stated with Scripture above). Also, if we go to the next chapter, John 18:9 is the fulfillment of John 17:12 and says, "This happened so that the words He had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me."(NIV). John 18:9 refers directly and plainly to all His disciples who are with Him in the garden at that point in time and He says none are lost. Upon the Scripture which clearly states who the son of perdition is(son sentenced to eternal damnation), not "sons" and the fulfillment of John 17:12 in John 18:9, I do not believe Judas went to hell because he has not been judged and know where in scripture does it clearly and plainly state "Judas went to hell." Bless you, Love Fountain |
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2 | "Sons" of perdition? | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 28780 | ||
Greetings Love Fountain! I hope you had a great New Year! I look at John 17 differently than you do. John 17:6-19 seems to only apply to the 12 Disciples. Jesus speaks of everything in that passage in the past and present tenses. I was with them. I have protected them, ect. Then, in v. 20, He expands the prayer to those who "will" believe through their message. Further, the language of v. 12 is one of exception. Jesus says that He has not lost any that the Father had given Him, except.... If we view v. 12 as refering to Satan or the anti-Christ, would we then have to say that they were among those given to Christ? I do agree though that there is no verse which says that Judas went to hell. In fact, in my understanding of the words for "hell," no human will be there until after the judgement. But, it is an interesting discussion! ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | "Sons" of perdition? | NT general Archive 1 | Love Fountain | 28782 | ||
Dear Tim, Please share with me the understanding of the Greek word for "except" which I believe is "ei me". I am hoping the Greek definition is similiar to the English definition which I hope answers your question regarding whether or not satan or the antichrist was given to Christ. I think satan has been left out because as I chased the English word "except" in the Websters and I was led to a definition of the word exclude, meaning to bar from participation, consideration, or inclusion. What about the fulfillment of John 17:12 in John 18:9? This helps me to see that none are lost, not even Judas, no matter how many may want otherwise. Bless you, Love Fountain |
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4 | "Sons" of perdition? | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 28804 | ||
Greetings Love Fountain! 'Ei me' means pretty much the same thing as the English 'except.' But, the exclusion is one of category. For instance, I might say, "I have never lost a game of baseball, except for one game when I was in 2nd grade." The 'except' excludes the one game from all of the others. In this case, the rest were wins, while the one was a loss. In John 17:12, the category is "those who have not been lost" with the one exception being "the son of perdition." The point of my question was simply this: If we view Satan (or the anti-christ) as being the exception, then he must be included in the group of those who were given to Christ by the Father - with the only difference being that he was lost while the rest were not. I think this point and the context mitigate against viewing John 17:12 as a reference to Satan or the anti-christ. The context seems to make it pretty clear that Judas is the exception since the disciples are the ones being discussed. How about John 18:9? I don't this verse as saying anything different than John 17:12. Those who were not lost are still not lost, while the one exception is still lost. Thus, I would say that John 18:9 only applies to the "those who were not lost" of John 17:12. Concerning your last comment, do you mean that none (disciples) are lost or do you mean that no one is lost ever? In other words, do you believe that anyone is ever lost and goes to hell? I just ask because I have picked up on a couple of comments that made me think we might be approaching this issue from very different perspectives. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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