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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Saved by belief or belief and baptism? | NT general Archive 1 | Coty | 164133 | ||
I do believe that baptism in water is necessary for the forgivness of sins. I do not believe that there is power in the water. I merely believe that God meets us with salvation when we are immersed into water by the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When did God meet Naaman with a healing from his leprosy? After he dipped in the Jordan River seven times. It is true that Romans 3:28 tells us that we are not saved by the works of the law. Yet, this is the Law of Moses he is talking about here. The Law of Moses and baptism have nothing to do with one another. The command to be baptized is a New Testament precept, not Old Testament. At the same time we should never look at baptism is a thing we do to earn salvation. We are baptized to obey God. It is one of the conditions of salvation. Salvation can be likened unto a check. If I decided I wanted to give you a gift and wrote out a thousand dollar check, what conditions would you have to meet before recieving the 1,000 dollars. You would have to sign it and take it to the bank. Just because you signed it and took it to the bank doesn't mean you earned it or worked for it. God gives salvation freely out to all those who will obey him. Some will ask, "What if you were to die while you were on your way to be baptized?" That's a good question. I'm glad God is the judge and not I. I believe God would still save that person because of his willingness to obey. But this still does not take away the importance of baptism. You also say we are saved by faith alone. I will have to agree. The devils believe in God as well, but we know they are not saved(James 2:19). The only time the Bible mentions the words "faith only" is in James 2:24. Yet it says a man is not saved by faith alone. There is much more that could be said, but I will stop here for right now. Thank You and In Christ, Coty |
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2 | Saved by belief or belief and baptism? | NT general Archive 1 | mark d seyler | 164231 | ||
Hi Coty, Welcome to the Forum! If I understand you correctly, you have said that you believe baptism is a requirement for forgivness of sins. But then you later said that you believed a person could still be saved without baptism. Would that not mean that baptism is not required? When I say required, I mean it in the sense that Jesus' atoning sacrifice, and later resurrection, is required. If Jesus didn't die for our sins, and then rise from the dead, then we are still in our sins. To say that baptism is required, then we must say that the person who is not baptized is still in their sins. If a person can be cleansed of their sins without baptism, then baptism is not required. Would you agree with that statement? Mind you, I believe baptism is an important part of our obedience to our Lord, and I am not meaning to downplay it's importance. On you example of the 1000 dollar check, I would liken salvation to direct deposit. Ephesians 2 tells us we are saved by faith, and not of works (not just works of the Law of Moses, but any works). Baptism is a work, therefore, how could it save us? Regarding James 2:24, James is contrasting two different things for us, the first is faith that doesn't have works, and the second is faith that does have works. Look back to vs. 14. It is the faith that does not have works that is not able to save. James is telling us a quality of saving faith. Truly, God considers faith complete when it shows itself by works, but notice, before Abraham offered Isaac, it is written of him, "He believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.(Gen 15:6) - more like direct deposit ;-) Finally, one last item. If baptism is required for salvation, how does that square with: Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. For a doctrine to be true, it must not conflict with Any Scripture, and this passage in Romans is simple and plain. He does not say that it is faith and works that saves. He says that it is faith that has works that saves. We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. Having been saved, we then do works because we are saved, and one of those first works should be baptism. Again, welcome to the Forum! This has been a much discussed subject, and you can read these discussions by entering "baptism" in the search box. Love in Christ, mark |
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3 | Saved by belief or belief and baptism? | NT general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 164240 | ||
Mark, "Ephesians 2 tells us we are saved by faith, and not of works (not just works of the Law of Moses, but any works). Baptism is a work, therefore, how could it save us?" Those who believe in baptismal regenration believe that baptism is a work of Christ, not a work of man. It is Christ who baptizes, working in and through His body, which is the Church.(Romans 6:4; 7:4; 12:5; 1 Cor 12:27; Eph 3:6; 4:12; Matt 28:19) The Catechism: "1088 "To accomplish so great a work" - the dispensation or communication of his work of salvation - "Christ is always present in his Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations. He is present in the Sacrifice of the Mass not only in the person of his minister, 'the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross,' but especially in the Eucharistic species. By his power he is present in the sacraments so that when anybody baptizes, it is really Christ himself who baptizes. He is present in his word since it is he himself who speaks when the holy Scriptures are read in the Church. Lastly, he is present when the Church prays and sings, for he has promised 'where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them."'Matthew 18:20)" "1084 "Seated at the right hand of the Father" and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify." "1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power." "1128 This is the meaning of the Church's affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: "by the very fact of the action's being performed"), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them. " http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a1.htm#1088 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm#1127 Emmaus |
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4 | Saved by belief or belief and baptism? | NT general Archive 1 | mark d seyler | 164242 | ||
Hi Emmaus, Thank you for this information. I want to say a bigger thank you to you as well, as over time when you have posted material on the sacraments, you have helped me to learn the greater significance of these things, and how they join us in the physical realm to the spiritual. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that while the motion we go through is ours, the actual work that is performed is Christ's. But if the work is wholly His, how is it that it cannot be performed unless I also perform an action? When we say "works", are we not talking about particular behaviors, actions, that we perform, whether giving alms, attending church, mass, or being baptized? I believe, as you do, that the work of salvation is wholly Christ's to perform, but I do not believe that salvation requires of me a complementary "work" or action. I consider that salvation comes, on my part at least, through an act of will rather than an act of behavior. I believe that I become born again when I choose to repent, and to obey Christ. Love in Christ, mark |
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5 | Saved by belief or belief and baptism? | NT general Archive 1 | lionheart | 164247 | ||
Mark, Bless you brother.Sometimes I think when we refer to works it's almost like we are saying one of those nasty four letter words. It has alway been the tenet of our faith that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9). It's impossible to argue the point,the bible is quite clear regarding salvation.James chapter 2 does a quite credible job on the subject of faith and works.In closing I will make this statement- What we do (works If one so chooses to call them)evidences what we have or in more instances than I care to addmitt myself what we may lack. I heard a learned man of God say a number of years ago that if we were put on trial for our faith would there be enough evidence to convict. In Christ, lionheart |
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