Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Lionstrong | 19527 | ||
Sorry, Tim, I meant Rom. 1:18. Note that Mr. Morris does not write "His propitiation was for all (I John 2:2)" but, "His propitiation is adequate for all." I understand your definition, but I agree with Morris', who simply defines it as "removing the deivine wrath." With your definition, of course, you don't need I John 2:2 to prove your point! :-) It's one thing to say propitiation means "Christ has appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived," and another thing to say that the propitiation (which means removing the deivine wrath) of Christ "appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived." So is yours a definition or simply a restatement of the Arminiam view of Our Savior's propitiation? Peace, Lionstrong |
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2 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19531 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! You totally lost me on this one my friend. You said: "It's one thing to say propitiation means "Christ has appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived," and another thing to say that the propitiation (which means removing the deivine wrath) of Christ "appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived." Yet, both of your statements are the same. I said quite clearly that Christ's death appeased God's wrath against every sin, of all people, for all time. The only thing I can figure is that you see a difference between appeasing God's wrath and removing God's wrath. If so, please explain the difference! My definition is exactly what the verses refered to state that it is: 1) It is an appeasement of God's wrath against sin, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ - Rom. 3:25 and Heb. 2:17. 2) It was offered for our sins and for the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2. Which part of this is not true to the verses? I understand that your theological perspective rejects the view that propiation is univeral in extent, but there is not a single verse where the word groups occurs that limits the extent. To limit the extent is an assumption based upon your theology, but a fact based upon the verses. Again, the word groups appears in: Luke 18:13 and Heb. 2:17, 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10, Rom. 3:25 and Heb. 9:5, and Mt. 16:22 and Heb. 8:12. Which of these verses (the only ones where the word group occurs) says that propitiation is only for the sins of the elect? The only one which deals with the extent is 1 John 2:2 and it clearly does not limit the extent. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Lionstrong | 19555 | ||
Read them again, Tim, And you will see that they are not the same. Maybe the quotes and parenthesis confused you. 1) Propitiation MEANS Christ has appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived. 2) The propitiation of Christ appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived. One is a definition, and the other is simply a statement of a doctrinal view. Further more, your definition is not the same as the one you referenced. Morris' definition is simply "removing the deivine wrath." (period) He never defines it in terms of its extent. To repeat, Mr. Morris does not write "His propitiation was for all (I John 2:2)" but, "His propitiation is ADEQUATE for all." Yours definition is (and I quote): "propitiation MEANS [my caps] that Christ has appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived." In other words your definition assumes the point you are trying to prove. So, again, my question: Is yours a definition, or simply a restatement of the Arminiam view of Our Savior's propitiation? Peace, Lionstrong |
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4 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19557 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! I think you are straining at gnats! :-) But, to satisfy you: My definition of propitiation is that it is a term which refers to the appeasement of God's wrath on the cross, accomplished once and for all by Christ on our behalf, and extending to the sins of every man, woman, and child who has ever lived, currently lives, or ever will live. This is a definition is based upon the eight verse where the word group is actually used in the New Testament. Now, how about answering my question? Which part of my definition violates the text of any of these eight verses? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Lionstrong | 19568 | ||
I'm sorry, Brother Tim, That you see it as straining at gnats. I see it as making sure that you yourself see what you're calling a definition of propitiation. As your definition assumes the point at issue, it does not violate the text of any of the eight verses. However, your analysis of the eight verses does not warrant such a definition. 1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. -says who the propitiation's for and the extent(which is our point of contention). Does not say what propitiation is. ********************************* 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation FOR OUR SINS. -says why the propition was necessary (God's wrath incurred by our sins), but does not say what propitiation is. ************************************* Luke 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' -is a repentant sinner's request for God to be propitious. God is the object of Christ's propitiation, but this verse does not define the term. ********************************** Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. -the office in which Christ executes the propitiatory sacrice (the office of priest). One note (in my favor :-) ): following the OT figure, the propitiation is made for the people--the Philistines? No, God's people, Israel. So like wise in the NT, propitiation is not for everyone, but for the people of God only, those who are his by faith in our Lord. But still, propitiation is not defined. *************************************** Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; -faith, the instrument by which the propitiation of our Lord is applied to us. Propitiation is "in his blood" alone "through faith" alone. This excludes unbelievers. But again, this verse does not define our word. ******************************************** Heb 9:5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail. -the lid on the Ark was called the propitiation. Who alone had access to the Holy of Holies? And for whom did he enter once a year--for the Egyptians? No, God's people. Again, an OT figure for the reality in Christ who went into the true Holy of Holies with his own blood for God's people. Nope, no definition. *************************************** Heb 8:12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." -God will be propitious. The context is the New Covenant. How do we become partakers of the New Covenant wherein God will be propitious toward our iniquities and remember our sins no more? By faith alone! NOT for unbelievers. But it doesn't define propitious. ************************************ Matt 16:22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You." -Lord have mercy! Peace, Lionstrong |
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6 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19578 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! Thank you for dealing with the verses my friend! The problem we have then is that these are the only eight verses which deal with the word group. None of the say that propitiation is only for believers, but 1 John 2:2 says that it is for the sins of the whole world. My contention is this: Any attempt to define the word has to come from the actual verses where it is used. You say that it only refers to believers, but not one verse says this, so that is an assumption. I don't know where we go from here. We don't seem to be going anywhere. I do enjoy interacting with you my friend, both now and in the future. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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