Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19460 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! Let's try a different approach! Scripture has to be the source of our definition of words. The word group dealt with in Rom. 3:25 and 1 John 2:2 is made up of a total of 4 words, each of which is used twice in the New Testament. Let us appeal to them and allow Scripture to define what 'propitiation' is or is not. 1) hilaskomai (# 2433): It is used in Luke 18:13 and Heb. 2:17. a) Luke 18:13 - "‘‘But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’" Here we see that 'propitiation' is something that a sinner can receive from God. b) Heb. 2:17 - "17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." Here we see that 'propitiation' is a high priestly function related to the sins of the people. 2) Hilasmos (# 2434): This word is used in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10. a) 1 John 2:2 - "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." Here we see that 'propitiation' is a sacrifice which Christ made for sin (for ours and for the sins of the whole world). b) 1 John 4:10 - "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." This verse says pretty much the same thing as 1 John 2:2, without mention of the world. 3) Hilasteerion (# 2435): This word occurs in Rom. 3:25 and Heb. 9:5. a) Rom. 3:25 - " God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—" Here, we again see that 'propitiation' is a sacrifice. We also see a reference to the blood of Christ. Hence, drawing our attention to His death. b) Heb. 9:5 - " Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now." Here we have a reference to a part of the Ark. 4) hileos (# 2436): This word occurs in Mt. 16:22 and Heb. 8:12. a) Mt. 16:22 - " Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘‘Never, Lord!” he said. ‘‘This shall never happen to you!”" This word is used in the sense of 'May the Lord be merciful to you.' Thus, it is not very relevant to our discussion. b) Heb. 8:12 - "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”" Three things become abundently clear about 'propitiation' from these passages. 1) It is something done by Christ for us. 2) It is an atonement for sins. 3) It was done for everyone's sins. Nothing in these verses limits the extend of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. In fact, 1 John 2:2 spells out the extent. To be perfectly blunt, (in my opinion) it is only your reformed tradition which mandates that 1 John 2:2 cannot mean "the sins of the whole world". If all we had was 1 John 4:10, I could allow that your interpretation might be possible. Who are us? Could 'us' simply refer to the believers to whom John was writing? Of course it could be! But, 1 John 2:2 does not allow that interpretation. We must allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, not our theology. The wrath of God was appeased against all sin on the cross. According to Heb. 7:27, it was a once for all sacrifice, never to be repeated. It is only your view of election that prevents you from accepting the "all's" and "whole's" and "everyone's" of Scripture. But, that is your right! :-) As for me, if some tells me they are going to give me a "whole" pie, then I don't believe that they are only going to give me a part of a pie. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Lionstrong | 19501 | ||
I have nothing but praise, Brother Tim, For your research in the Word of God. If more of us forum members followed your good example, our debates would be more, maybe much more, productive. You started off admirably to see how propitiation was used in the NT to try to develop a biblical definition. Why didn't you finish? You should have concluded with something like, "So we see from these verses that protiation means...." I wish you had, for then you would have seen that its meaning demands that I John 2:2 be applied to believers only in the whole world. If you had, then you could consistantly hold 1 John 2:2 and Rom 2:18. So, what does propitiation mean? Peace, Lionstrong |
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3 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19517 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! I thought I did provide a definition, but maybe I didn't go far enough! Sorry! :-) So, we see from these verses that propitiation means that Christ has appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived. This appeasement is achieved through the death of Christ on the cross, which is itself the one perfect atoning act. I didn't follow you point concerning 1 John 2:2 and Rom. 2:18! Could you please clarify? The above is my definition. Below is the definition from Baker's Dictionary of Theology. It is taken from the article on Propitiation by Leon Morris: ********************************************* "While God's wrath is not mentioned as frequently in the NT as the Old, it is there. Man's sin receives its due reward, not because of some impersonal retribution, but because God's wrath is directed against it (Rom. 1:18, 24, 26, 28). The whole of the argument of the opening part of Romans is that all men, Gentiles and Jews alke, are sinners, and that they come under the wrath and the condemnation of God. When Paul turns to slavation, he thinks of Christ's death as hilasterion (Rom. 3:25), a means of removing the deivine wrath. The paradox of the OT is repeated in the New that God himself provides the means of removing his own wrath. The love of the Father is shown in that he "sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (I John 4:10). The purpose of Christ's becoming "a merciful and faithful high priest" was "to make propitiation for the sins of the people" (Heb. 2:17). His propitiation is adequate for all (1 John 2:2). The consistent Bible view is that the sin of man has incrurred the wrath of God. That wrath is averted only by Christ's atoning offering. From this standpoint his saving work is properly called propitiation." ************************************************ This is said better than I put it, but the point is the same. |
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4 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Lionstrong | 19527 | ||
Sorry, Tim, I meant Rom. 1:18. Note that Mr. Morris does not write "His propitiation was for all (I John 2:2)" but, "His propitiation is adequate for all." I understand your definition, but I agree with Morris', who simply defines it as "removing the deivine wrath." With your definition, of course, you don't need I John 2:2 to prove your point! :-) It's one thing to say propitiation means "Christ has appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived," and another thing to say that the propitiation (which means removing the deivine wrath) of Christ "appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived." So is yours a definition or simply a restatement of the Arminiam view of Our Savior's propitiation? Peace, Lionstrong |
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5 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19531 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! You totally lost me on this one my friend. You said: "It's one thing to say propitiation means "Christ has appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived," and another thing to say that the propitiation (which means removing the deivine wrath) of Christ "appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived." Yet, both of your statements are the same. I said quite clearly that Christ's death appeased God's wrath against every sin, of all people, for all time. The only thing I can figure is that you see a difference between appeasing God's wrath and removing God's wrath. If so, please explain the difference! My definition is exactly what the verses refered to state that it is: 1) It is an appeasement of God's wrath against sin, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ - Rom. 3:25 and Heb. 2:17. 2) It was offered for our sins and for the sins of the whole world - 1 John 2:2. Which part of this is not true to the verses? I understand that your theological perspective rejects the view that propiation is univeral in extent, but there is not a single verse where the word groups occurs that limits the extent. To limit the extent is an assumption based upon your theology, but a fact based upon the verses. Again, the word groups appears in: Luke 18:13 and Heb. 2:17, 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10, Rom. 3:25 and Heb. 9:5, and Mt. 16:22 and Heb. 8:12. Which of these verses (the only ones where the word group occurs) says that propitiation is only for the sins of the elect? The only one which deals with the extent is 1 John 2:2 and it clearly does not limit the extent. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Lionstrong | 19555 | ||
Read them again, Tim, And you will see that they are not the same. Maybe the quotes and parenthesis confused you. 1) Propitiation MEANS Christ has appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived. 2) The propitiation of Christ appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived. One is a definition, and the other is simply a statement of a doctrinal view. Further more, your definition is not the same as the one you referenced. Morris' definition is simply "removing the deivine wrath." (period) He never defines it in terms of its extent. To repeat, Mr. Morris does not write "His propitiation was for all (I John 2:2)" but, "His propitiation is ADEQUATE for all." Yours definition is (and I quote): "propitiation MEANS [my caps] that Christ has appeased God's wrath against the sins of every man, woman, and child, who has ever lived, or ever will lived." In other words your definition assumes the point you are trying to prove. So, again, my question: Is yours a definition, or simply a restatement of the Arminiam view of Our Savior's propitiation? Peace, Lionstrong |
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7 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19557 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! I think you are straining at gnats! :-) But, to satisfy you: My definition of propitiation is that it is a term which refers to the appeasement of God's wrath on the cross, accomplished once and for all by Christ on our behalf, and extending to the sins of every man, woman, and child who has ever lived, currently lives, or ever will live. This is a definition is based upon the eight verse where the word group is actually used in the New Testament. Now, how about answering my question? Which part of my definition violates the text of any of these eight verses? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Lionstrong | 19568 | ||
I'm sorry, Brother Tim, That you see it as straining at gnats. I see it as making sure that you yourself see what you're calling a definition of propitiation. As your definition assumes the point at issue, it does not violate the text of any of the eight verses. However, your analysis of the eight verses does not warrant such a definition. 1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. -says who the propitiation's for and the extent(which is our point of contention). Does not say what propitiation is. ********************************* 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation FOR OUR SINS. -says why the propition was necessary (God's wrath incurred by our sins), but does not say what propitiation is. ************************************* Luke 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' -is a repentant sinner's request for God to be propitious. God is the object of Christ's propitiation, but this verse does not define the term. ********************************** Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. -the office in which Christ executes the propitiatory sacrice (the office of priest). One note (in my favor :-) ): following the OT figure, the propitiation is made for the people--the Philistines? No, God's people, Israel. So like wise in the NT, propitiation is not for everyone, but for the people of God only, those who are his by faith in our Lord. But still, propitiation is not defined. *************************************** Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; -faith, the instrument by which the propitiation of our Lord is applied to us. Propitiation is "in his blood" alone "through faith" alone. This excludes unbelievers. But again, this verse does not define our word. ******************************************** Heb 9:5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail. -the lid on the Ark was called the propitiation. Who alone had access to the Holy of Holies? And for whom did he enter once a year--for the Egyptians? No, God's people. Again, an OT figure for the reality in Christ who went into the true Holy of Holies with his own blood for God's people. Nope, no definition. *************************************** Heb 8:12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." -God will be propitious. The context is the New Covenant. How do we become partakers of the New Covenant wherein God will be propitious toward our iniquities and remember our sins no more? By faith alone! NOT for unbelievers. But it doesn't define propitious. ************************************ Matt 16:22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You." -Lord have mercy! Peace, Lionstrong |
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9 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19578 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! Thank you for dealing with the verses my friend! The problem we have then is that these are the only eight verses which deal with the word group. None of the say that propitiation is only for believers, but 1 John 2:2 says that it is for the sins of the whole world. My contention is this: Any attempt to define the word has to come from the actual verses where it is used. You say that it only refers to believers, but not one verse says this, so that is an assumption. I don't know where we go from here. We don't seem to be going anywhere. I do enjoy interacting with you my friend, both now and in the future. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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