Results 1 - 8 of 8
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 18939 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! I understood what you were trying to say my friend, but I disagree. The reason I disagree is because context determines the meaning of a word. So, if a particular author uses a word in one way 23 times, and 22 times it means one thing. It is very likely that the 23 time it means the same thing. Therefore, contextually, 'world' cannot mean 'believers', when John never ever uses the word that way in any of his writtings. In fact, I would challenge you to find one verse in all of the Bible where 'world' means believers (only). Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Lionstrong | 19421 | ||
It is not true Brother Tim, That all 23 references have the same meaning. You yourself give at least two meanings (which increases the chances of there being a third, if we're playing the odds :-)). You apply your view of 1 Jn 2:2 not because the text demands it. If my view is not right, it is at least possible. There is also nothing inherently contradictory about understanding it that way. Jesus's death not only propitiated the wrath of God for the believing John and the believers to which he wrote, but also for believers of the whole world. This speaks of a universal extent of the propitiation of our Savior. His propitiation is not an impersonal blanket that covers the whole world indescriminately. God is not impersonal. Jesus is the personal, almighty omniscient God and he had you in mind when he hung on the cross, that his blood would appeas the wrath of the Father against you. Peace, Lionstrong |
||||||
3 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19442 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! Your case still doesn't work! Even if you argue that "it could" mean "believers", the fact still remains that John, nor any other writer, uses the word 'world' to refer to believers only. Can you find any verse in the entire Bible where 'world' means believers? Further, what about 1 John 5:19? Not only does John use the same word 'world', but he also uses the same qualifier 'whole'. Does this verse only refer to believers? 1 John 5:19 says, "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
4 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Lionstrong | 19453 | ||
Well, in this verse John DOES use the word world in refering to believers, dear Brother Tim, Because it's the only meaning that makes sense of the Savior's propitiation, if one knows what propitiation means. But some maintain that the wrath of God towards all people has been propitiated and at the same time maintain Rom 1:18 is true. Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, Peace, Lionstrong |
||||||
5 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19460 | ||
Greetings Lionstrong! Let's try a different approach! Scripture has to be the source of our definition of words. The word group dealt with in Rom. 3:25 and 1 John 2:2 is made up of a total of 4 words, each of which is used twice in the New Testament. Let us appeal to them and allow Scripture to define what 'propitiation' is or is not. 1) hilaskomai (# 2433): It is used in Luke 18:13 and Heb. 2:17. a) Luke 18:13 - "‘‘But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’" Here we see that 'propitiation' is something that a sinner can receive from God. b) Heb. 2:17 - "17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." Here we see that 'propitiation' is a high priestly function related to the sins of the people. 2) Hilasmos (# 2434): This word is used in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10. a) 1 John 2:2 - "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." Here we see that 'propitiation' is a sacrifice which Christ made for sin (for ours and for the sins of the whole world). b) 1 John 4:10 - "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." This verse says pretty much the same thing as 1 John 2:2, without mention of the world. 3) Hilasteerion (# 2435): This word occurs in Rom. 3:25 and Heb. 9:5. a) Rom. 3:25 - " God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—" Here, we again see that 'propitiation' is a sacrifice. We also see a reference to the blood of Christ. Hence, drawing our attention to His death. b) Heb. 9:5 - " Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now." Here we have a reference to a part of the Ark. 4) hileos (# 2436): This word occurs in Mt. 16:22 and Heb. 8:12. a) Mt. 16:22 - " Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘‘Never, Lord!” he said. ‘‘This shall never happen to you!”" This word is used in the sense of 'May the Lord be merciful to you.' Thus, it is not very relevant to our discussion. b) Heb. 8:12 - "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”" Three things become abundently clear about 'propitiation' from these passages. 1) It is something done by Christ for us. 2) It is an atonement for sins. 3) It was done for everyone's sins. Nothing in these verses limits the extend of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. In fact, 1 John 2:2 spells out the extent. To be perfectly blunt, (in my opinion) it is only your reformed tradition which mandates that 1 John 2:2 cannot mean "the sins of the whole world". If all we had was 1 John 4:10, I could allow that your interpretation might be possible. Who are us? Could 'us' simply refer to the believers to whom John was writing? Of course it could be! But, 1 John 2:2 does not allow that interpretation. We must allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, not our theology. The wrath of God was appeased against all sin on the cross. According to Heb. 7:27, it was a once for all sacrifice, never to be repeated. It is only your view of election that prevents you from accepting the "all's" and "whole's" and "everyone's" of Scripture. But, that is your right! :-) As for me, if some tells me they are going to give me a "whole" pie, then I don't believe that they are only going to give me a part of a pie. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
6 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | CDBJ | 19464 | ||
Tim, I agree with you on this one, Christ died for the sins of the whole World, for believers and unbelievers. What Jesus did in effect was to eliminate the sin issue; now the issue for the unbeliever isn't sin, but Jesus Christ Himself and what will the unbeliever do about Him, believe in Him or reject Him. Very simple for mankind, but it cost God His unique Son. John 16:7-11, this is directed toward the unbelievers in the World, because verse 9 says so, and we see that the issue is Jesus not people's sins. CDBJ | ||||||
7 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | Morant61 | 19466 | ||
Greetings CDBJ! One point I forgot to include in my response to Lionstrong was the following (hopefully you see this my friend, if not I'll include it later): Romans 1 makes the point that God's wrath is agains the pagan or the Gentile. Romans 2 makes the point that God's wrath is also against the Jew, who has the Law but violates it anyway. Romans 3 makes the point that we are all sinners, but Jesus has appeased God's wrath against us through His death. Now, we can be reconciled to Him, if we accept the gift of salvation. In line with what your saying, I always tell people that the only sin which will send you to hell is to reject Christ. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
8 | The 'Kosmos' in 1 John | 1 John 2:2 | CDBJ | 19469 | ||
Amen, and again I say Amen!! I would back you up on this last statement all the way. That most important one that will back us up is the Lord Himself, with promis after promis. There are a lot of, so called believer that don't know what it means to believe and trust in Christ. When the word believe is used in the Bible, the Amplified version hits the nail right on the head. It says in ref. to believing in Christ that one must (trust in, cling to and relie on Jesus), and brother that mean 100 persent or nothing at all! We can't add a little bit of anything we do, because if we do, then is not trusting in Him!!! CDBJ | ||||||