Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | stjohn | 207612 | ||
Hi Beja, You ask for us to help you out by being comprehensive, clear, and precise in our answers, in order to debunk this passage. Then, your statement about what you believe this passage is NOT to mean, seems pretty clear; You wrote --"Now, for somebody like myself who does NOT believe you can loose your salvation. This is a problem verse. Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that this is how the verse must be understood. Quite the contrary, I intend for us to debunk that understanding of it" (sic) But then you say this; --"I'm leaning at the moment to this person described being saved but clearly I'm open to thoughts on it." (sic) It seems to me you cant have it both ways; what you are saying is quite confusing, if you cant lose your salvation, then this passage cannot be talking about a saved person. Can it? Have you actually got an answer for this debunking process, or are you just trying to work through it? My suggestion would be if you have what you believe to be a clear understanding of the problem then you should just put it down in print so we can see it clearly without the confusion of working through it with a mix of differing opinions. That only seems to add to the confusion. I hope you take no offense but your method isen't helping me at all. God bless John |
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2 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Beja | 207613 | ||
I apologize if I'm not communicating this clearly. The answer to the apparent inconsistencies, that you did accurately quote from me, is that one possible solution is that the passage is not saying they have lost their salvation. I do in fact have an idea of how this might be resolved and I had from the start intended to post this after I had received some alternative views. With regards to not understanding the problem I must admit it seems that I am finding a way to make unclear something that should be very clear. I had thought that anybody who reads the passage could understand the complication. The passage -appears- to be making the following statements. There are people who... 1. Were saved. 2. Have fallen away 3. Can not return to repentence 4. Because they would need to recrucify christ to do so. If the above 4 points are to be understood as I just stated them, then "once saved, always saved" is shown false. I know no other way to more clearly state the problem within this verse. The IF/THEN statement I made is absolute and can't be contested. The only thing you can do is try to prove the IF part false. Which means that you must -show how- those 4 statements are not what that passage is actually meaning to say. Possible solutions are: 1. These terms are not referring to a saved person. 2. "Falling away" is not referring to loosing your salvation. These are not the only options most likely but the most obvious ones. However, here is the rub, if you think the author is NOT talking about saved people, or is not talking about loosing your salvation then you must explain what he IS talking about. What does he mean when he refers to "those who have partaken of the Holy Spirit" or "those who have fallen away." Just saying that its not saying those four statements because the result would be something we don't want to believe is insufficient. I do not know how to more clearly sate the problem. If this attempt does not make it clear and result in stimulating a productive discussion of the above I'll give what meager answer I've come up with on my own and simply not pursue it any further. P.S. The only reason I gave the discussion the pre-determined idea that you can't loose your salvation is because if you don't believe that then the passage is obviously not a problem at all. |
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3 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | CDBJ | 207615 | ||
Hi Beja, I would like to contribute some food for thought to the verses in debate. Within the grammar of the Koine Greek there is what’s known as a conditional clause, which begins with the equivalent translated “if” in the English. There are four different ways to translate and understand the “if”clause. 1st class condition ---- if and it is true (Matt. 4:6) 2nd class “ ---- if and it isn’t true (Matt. 4:9 John 4:10) 3rd class “ ---- if maybe it’s true and maybe it’s not (1John 1:9) Probability. 4th class “ ---- if I wish it were true but it’s not (Acts 17:27 1Peter 3:14, 17) Possibility. Most of those that assume they can loose their salvation don’t take into consideration the following if their premise could be correct. Verses 4- 6 of Hebrews 6 is essence says that it is impossible to be “resaved” as it were, because of the following reason. Hebrews 6:4-6 they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. So if one could be saved and then lose their salvation they can’t ever be saved again. Now on the side of “logic”, since God is omniscient i.e. He knows all things, why would He bother saving them in the first place if He knew they were going to lose it. “My” salvation didn’t depend on me to get it and it doesn’t depend on me to sustain it; it’s all a grace operation and my God gets all the credit. “Being a child of God” I can either be blessed in grace or disciplined in grace but God is going to conform me to the image of His Son, be it the easy way or the hard way, God will accomplish His purpose for calling me and you can take that to the bank! The Lord will either orientate me to grace here on Earth or take me home and do it real quick. Have a great day, CDBJ |
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4 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Beja | 207617 | ||
Ok, now we are getting into some good thoughts! This is exactly what I'm looking for. You are actually trying to address the passage rather than just stating some doctrinal statment and leaving me to wonder how it applies in my particular passage. However... This is not an if/then clause in the greek. In the greek, the main phrase is basically this: For to again renew to repentence is impossible. The rest of it is just phrases qualifying who it is moving to repentence, those who have this and this and this. Adunaton gar...palin anakainidzein eis metanoian. How I wish we had greek font for this! Following this it says roughly "because they crucify...etc." If you are able to read greek yourself do take a look at it in the greek to verify. The dots that I have inserted in the phrase are skipping over the entire description of who it is talking about but when you diagram it out this is the central phrase. So this doesn't really resolve it either since there are no conditional sentences in it. On the other hand I completely agree with your logical assessment. |
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5 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Morant61 | 207618 | ||
Greetings Beja! Welcome to the forum! If you are interested, look up the following to posts for some thoughts on this particular passage that I posted on this forum some time ago. 17781 and 25332 Just enter the number in the search box to the upper right of the page. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Beja | 207630 | ||
I attempted to respond to this post earlier but it didn't seem to go through. In the links to these posts Tim Moran posts my theory on how this verse is to be understood. I won't restate it since he does an amazing job. Thank you Tim, the whole reason I never said it and have been waiting for somebody to offer a good explination is that I wish the answer didn't require us to say that the NASB interpreters translated in a way that made the true meaning rather hidden. | ||||||
7 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | son of god | 207643 | ||
Hebrews 6:4-6 is all a part of a longer passage begginning at 5:13 through 6:12 the Hebrew writter is addressing Christian immaturity. . This is why Jesus teaches us to pray give us this day. there is a fundamental difference between daily forgiveness and etrnal salvation. | ||||||
8 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Val | 207646 | ||
Look at verse 8 - Those who tasted and fell away are like the ground that received the rain and didn't produce vegetation but only worthless thorns and thistles - they'll be burned. This is talking about "those" in verse 4-6. Now look at verse 10 - they brought forth vegetation - your work and love shown toward His name, ministering to the saints. This is about the true believers. There is an exhortation in verse 11 - there is hope. That hope is in Jesus. Be deligent not sluggish, verse 12. Blessings, Val |
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