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NASB | Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Hebrews 6:4 For [it is impossible to restore to repentance] those who have once been enlightened [spiritually] and who have tasted and consciously experienced the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit, |
Subject: Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? |
Bible Note: Greetings Val! Thanks for waiting for my response. :-) Some of your questions concerning my perspective may be answered if I take a step back for a moment and address the big picture. My understanding of the audience of Hebrews is that they are a group of people (probably primarily Jewish) under a considerable amount of pressure and stress. They had grown to a point (see Heb. 5), but were having trouble advancing beyond that point (see Heb. 6). The author's fear was that they may not persevere to the end (6:11-12). Some have even argued that they may have been in danger of turning back to Judaism. So, Heb. 6:1-12 is all of the following: an appeal to grow up, a warning not to fall away, and an encouragement to persevere to the end. The particular passage in question (6:4-8) deals with a hypothetical group of people who have turned their backs upon Christ, and the consequences of their decision. The author is not saying that his audience has done this. He is only saying that this is what could happen, followed by an affirmation (vv. 9-10) that he anticipated better from them, and an encouragement (vv. 11-12) to persevere to the end. Now, with that in mind, allow me to address your questions. 1) First of all, I don't recall asking a question about v. 11. :-) I was trying to illustrate that vv. 7-8 don't 'prove' that the individuals in vv. 4-6 were not in fact Christian. Rather, vv. 7-8 could be describing Christians who did not follow the author's admonition to persevere in v. 11. 2) What does Heb. 6:7-8 mean? Simple, the author is telling his audience that God wants them to be fruitful, and if they are not, they could be cut off and burned. This is why I appealed to John 15:2-6. One poster, I believe it was our friend Hoppy, made the argument that the individuals described in vv. 7-8 were not fruitful, therefore they could not have been Christians (I am paraphrasing). John 15:2-6 illustrates that this is not unnecessarily true, because there are some who are described as being 'in Him' who are not fruitful. 3) Did they repent? Heb. 6:6 says of them, "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance." If I say, "It is impossible for me to again hit a home run," doesn't it necessarily follow that I must have hit a home run to begin with? :-) If they cannot be 'renewed again to repentance', doesn't it necessarily follow that they must have repented one before? 4) Can they come back, if they fall away? For a much more detailed discussion, see posts 17781 and 25332. But, my shorter answer is that 'they are crucifying afresh' and 'they are exposing Him to public disgrace' are both present participles. As such, they can be translated two ways. They could be translated as causual (since), providing two reasons for it being impossible to restore them to repentance. Or, they could be translated as temporal (while), thus providing two condition 'during which' they cannot be restored to repentance. If the latter is true, then the impossibility is not permanent. It is only impossible while they are doing these two things. 5) The contrast of v. 9. Yes, there is a contrast. Verses 4-8 describe what could happen, while verses 9-12 describe what the author expects and encourages to happen. The people described in vv. 9 and 10, could become the people described in vv. 4-8, if they do not follow the author's admonition in vv. 11-12. :-) Whew! I hope I have fairly addressed your questions my friend. The only thing I would add to this discussion is that in one of your previous posts you mentioned that it would cost me to change my view. I hope you don't believe that I am 'simply clinging' to a view. The understanding that I have laid out for you is my sincere and considered understanding of this passage. The words of Albert Barnes, regarding this passage, describe my true experience: "Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians." If we differ on our understanding, that is fine. But, please do not think that I would be so unethical as to twist the meaning of this passage in order to avoid paying a cost. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |