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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | But isn't that a contradiction | Gal 2:17 | Reformer Joe | 13720 | ||
Bob: Don't worry about coming across as anagonistic. Healthy discussion and debate is like dessert to me! :) I find you framing Chapter III of the Westminster Confession as a contradiction a little difficult to work with, and that is why I asked for your view. You see, all believers in the Bible have to reconcile an omipotent, omniscient God with the fact that He created beings who would rebel against Him (Satan and his angels and human beings). The way, I see it, there are three options in explaining why he would do such a thing: 1. He did not know they would sin against Him when he created them. 2. He did know that they would sin when He created them, but decided to "work around" that to glorify Himself anyway. 3. He did know that they would sin when He created them, and fully intended to work through their rebellion to glorify Himself. I hold (1) to be a denial of God knowing the future, and I reject that as unbiblical. The Scriptures I stated in my previous posts repudiate (2) by showing that God indeed intends the sin of humans and Satan to be used directly for His glory, in spite of the efforst of those who fight Him. Therefore, I embrace (3) as being the biblical answer. Whether Calvinist or Arminian, the fact still remains that God created beings who would become rebels against Him. To say that it was a mistake on God's part would deny His infinite wisdom, so there must have been a purpose to it. In any case, also note that God did not CREATE them in a state of sinfulness; both Satan and Adam were created in a state in which they were sinless, but corruptible. The Reformed view does not hold that God encouraged them to sin or entrapped them in some situation that they could not get out of, for that, too would violate Scripture: "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." --James 1:13-15 So while God did not MAKE Satan rebel or Adam sin (Chapter III of WCF states "nor was violence offered to the will of the creatures"), He created them will full knowledge that they would rebel. Therefore, the sin was theirs, but God had purpose in creating those who would become sinners. It would seem to deny some of God's revealed attributes to say otherwise. It is always a daunting task to ever attempt to even get the slightest grasp of God's soverign will over existence. We in our, finite, temporal bodies try to understand how no matter what we do, that God's purposes will be accomplished. It goes beyond some "cosmic chess match" where God compensates for "our moves." Every move that we make by our own free will, whether pleasing to God or dishonoring to Him, has already been incorporated into His sovereign decree from eternity past and will ultimately result in his glory. God created beings who would become vile, sinful creatures; it was His decree. God permitted them to sin; it was His decree. He permits us to be born in a state of rebellion against Him; that is His decree. He chooses some to be regenerated and dwell with Him for eternity to demonstrate His mercy and love and grace, and others to remain in their rebellious, sinful state and suffer His justice and wrath for THEIR sinfulness. Again, it is all part of His plan, not loose ends that he has to tie up after all is said and done. I see nothing in your comments that presents a more particular problem for Calvinists than it does for Arminians who must also explain that God created sinners, and is not the author of sin. --Joe! |
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2 | Part 1 of 2: Is that fair representation | Gal 2:17 | RWC | 13774 | ||
Good day Joe, I guess I am too "wordy" as the system keeps telling me that I have exceeded the maximum allowable length for a posting, even after I have tried to "edit it down." I shall break it into two parts. My apologies. First of all, you wrote: "Don't worry about coming across as anagonistic. Healthy discussion and debate is like dessert to me! :) " Thank you for your grace and patience! And this discussion is healthy! Thank you for that too. I read this post from you last night and have given it some thought. Please carefully consider the following points and/or questions and, if I am misunderstanding the Reformed view somehow, please show me what it is that I am missing. You write: "I find you framing Chapter III of the Westminster Confession as a contradiction a little difficult to work with," Good; it's not just me then!!! My problem (or at least one of my two main problems) with the strongly Reformed (Calvanist) point of view is that I do not know how to "frame it" so that it is anything other than a contradiction. I do not know how these two things can both be true at the same time. That is what I am hoping to answer by starting this thread. You then write: "You see, all believers in the Bible have to reconcile an omipotent, omniscient God with the fact that He created beings who would rebel against Him (Satan and his angels and human beings)." That is very true! And then you wrote (and this is what I had to really think about!): "The way, I see it, there are three options in explaining why he would do such a thing: "1. He did not know they would sin against Him when he created them. "2. He did know that they would sin when He created them, but decided to "work around" that to glorify Himself anyway. "3. He did know that they would sin when He created them, and fully intended to work through their rebellion to glorify Himself." And then you conclude your following paragraph by saying: "I embrace (3) as being the biblical answer." Of the 3 options that you have given here, I would embrace (3) as being the most biblical answer just as you do. But sir, with all due respect, it seems to me that you have not fairly (or maybe I should say "completely") stated the strongly Reformed (Calvanist) position in any of your three options. You third option clearly states God's *foreknowledge* of sin (which I believe even the most staunch Arminian would agree to), but it does not declare that God did actually pre-determine (predestinate) sin in such a way that it could not have occurred any other way than *exactly* as He determined it would. If that is not a correct representation the strongly Reformed (Calvanist) position, then maybe that is the part I do not understand and why this issue seems so contradictory. But, from what I have read and heard, so far at least, I think that I do understand at least this part of the Calvanist point of view correctly. Thus my quandry (spelling?). More in "part 2." |
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3 | Part 1 of 2: Is that fair representation | Gal 2:17 | Radioman | 14098 | ||
Normally, posts that are directed to one forum member in particular are not posted as "Primary questions." When the posted question is overly long, such posts can be irritating since others have to scroll past them to read other questions which are truly meant for anyone and everyone on the Forum. | ||||||