Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | So God is the cause of sin then | Gal 2:17 | Reformer Joe | 13602 | ||
Bob: In order to be more clear, I am going to quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith, one of the important documents reflecting the Reformed view. This is the first section of Chapter III, entitled "Of God's Eternal Decree": "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." So we see two important things right away: 1. ALL things are ordained by God. 2. God is NOT the author of sin. God not only foreknows sin; he allows sin to exist and uses it ultimately for His glory. You would agree that nothing happens without God allowing it, correct? I guess what differentiates the Reformed view from others is that rather than merely saying God's ultimate purposes are accomplished DESPITE the sinful rebellion of His creation, the Reformed theologian will state emphatically that God weaves the rebellion of man in the tapestry of His overall plan. However, man is the CAUSE of man's sin, not God. Regarding the human will, permit me to quote again from the WCF, from Chapter IX, "Of Free Will": ************************ II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it. III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. ************************ Therefore the Reformed view agrees with Scripture that while man was created with the ability to please God, that was lost in the Fall for Adam and all of his natural descendants. Romans 8:7-9 demonstrates that the unregenerate human is completely incapable of pleasing God. God did not cause this sinfulness, either; it proceeds from the curse which resulted from Adam's sin (Genesis 3). Another place where we can see this illustrated is the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis. After his entire ordeal from being sold into slavery, to being framed for sexual assault, to spending years in prison unjustly, to rising to the top of the political ladder in Egypt, he had this to say to his brothers: "Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt." --Genesis 45:8 Joseph says that GOD sent him to Egypt, but it was by means of the sinful actions of his brothers. This mans that God ordained it to happen, but didn't author the sin. How would you interpret this verse otherwise? Man's sin was part of God's decree. Joseph repeats the same idea again in the last chapter: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." --Genesis 50:20 There is no mistaking that God MEANT it to happen, not merely that he allowed it to occur and "cleaned up the mess" for His glory and His purposes. Again, he did not cause the sinful attitudes of the brothers, but since the original intent was to kill Joseph, it isn't too much of a stretch to suggest that God redirected that motive through Reuben. On last thing: You wrote, "If God has pre-determined every infitessimal detail of history, which must obviously include sin, then how can those individuals who commit those predetermined sins be held responsible for them?" Rather than answer myself, I will let the apostle Paul do the talking: "You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" Romans 9:19-21 Just out of curiosity, how would you work the verses here and in my other posts into another framework. Where do you stand on the reconciliation of God's sovereignty and man's sin? --Joe! |
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2 | But isn't that a contradiction | Gal 2:17 | RWC | 13641 | ||
Good day, Joe! It seems to me that we have come back to our starting point, and I have somehow missed the answer to my question. Your initial quote from the Westminster Confession ("the first section of Chapter III, entitled 'Of God's Eternal Decree'") is, I presume, the basis for Spurgeon's quote which I used to start this discussion. And then you wrote: "So we see two important things right away: 1. ALL things are ordained by God. 2. God is NOT the author of sin." This is precisely the thing that appears to me to be a contradiction (not just a paradox). How can both of these things be true? If God has, as the confession states, "unchangeably ordain[ed] whatsoever comes to pass," how can He be anything other than the author (source, cause) of sin? How does a strong Calvanistic theology logically avoid that conclusion? You also stated these same two principles (that seem like such a glaring contradiction to me) in another way in your next paragraph: "the Reformed theologian will state emphatically that God weaves the rebellion of man in the tapestry of His overall plan. However, man is the CAUSE of man's sin, not God." According to the reformed view, if I am understanding it correctly, the rebellion of man is not just woven into God's plan, it *is* the plan; it is a critical and foundational part of that plan; it was a deliberately, willfully, and unchangeably predetermined part of that plan. From that perspective, how does that make God something other than the author of sin? Please be patient with me here. I am not trying to be antangonistic, and I have worked hard at doing my best not to come across that way. I really want to understand "how you got there from here." A couple more brief points. First, I contemplated quoting Rom. 9:19-21 myself because, if that passage is in fact talking about God's predetermination *to salvation*, then indeed, it asks (and does not answer!) the same question that I am. Does that mean that, from a reformed point of view, this is a taboo question; one that we are not permitted to honestly ask and seek answers for? Personally, I think that Cranfield has come up with the best explaination of those 3 chapters, at least that I have encountered thus far. I would like to ask him a few questions as well, though! Second, you wrote: "Just out of curiosity, how would you work the verses here and in my other posts into another framework. Where do you stand on the reconciliation of God's sovereignty and man's sin?" That is a fair question, but with your permission (and I mean that!), I would like to refrain from sharing what I think for now. I don't have any secrets or special insights or anything like that. So no worries there. I would just like to avoid this turning into a debate comparing and contrasting two points of view, at least certainly for the time being. What I am looking to accomplish in our discussion, as I said in a previous post, is gain a clearer understanding of the strong Calvanistic point of view. And, I hope that our discussion will be of some value to you as well, and perhaps to others who might be reading this. I know, it is much easier for me to "sit in the shadows" so to speak and poke questions at you and what you have come to understand than it is for you to "be on the hot seat" and try and answer them all. So again, please be patient with me. I hope and pray that my questions do not seem antagonistic in any way. Believe me, that is not my intent! And besides all of that, in sharing what I think, I have a lot more questions than answers anyway! As I said in a previous post, I don't fit very well into either camp in the Arminian-Calvanist debate. Have a very good day! Bob |
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3 | But isn't that a contradiction | Gal 2:17 | Justin White | 13644 | ||
Hello Scripture must be read in context. 'an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth', from face value, contradicts 'turn the other cheek' but in context it makes complete sense. Think how Satan deceived Eve by twisting the truth of God's word. Think how Satan tempted Jesus by using scripture out of context. The apparent contradictions in scripture are not contradictions at all. Try not to look at scripture in isolation. With regard your question how would you then explain God asking us to pray for His will (this indicated that His will is not being done) and also the fact that He works all things together (why would He have to work things together if they were merely part of a “script” playing itself out) Many other religions have been fooled by only following part of the inspired Word of God and thereby ignoring the fundamental "in context" rule of thumb. If I maybe haven't answered your question I hope that at least I have encouraged you not to read (or find understanding) in isolated scripture. Yours in Christ Justin |
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4 | But isn't that a contradiction | Gal 2:17 | Morant61 | 13650 | ||
Greetings Justin! I think that part of the struggle people face concerning human events and God's sovereignty is that many operate under a definition of sovereignty that is philosphical not necessarily biblical. What I mean is simply this: Where in the Bible does it say that Sovereignty means that every act and every decision must be a direct result of God's determinitive will? A. W. Tozer used an example years ago that explains both sovereignty and free will very well. Imagine that God has placed us upon an ocean liner. We have no way to steer the liner. We have no way to change the speed. We have no way to determine the destination of the liner. All of this has been determined by God. However, within the confines of our limitations, we have a multitude of choices. We can choose what we will eat. We can choose with whom we will fellowship. We can choose the attitude with which we will approach our journey. This is an excellent illustration of the tension between God's sovereignty and our freedom. God doesn't determine what we will eat for breakfast. We freely choose our food. God doesn't force us to obey His commands. We freely choose to obey or disobey. However, we suffer the consequences of our choices. Thus, I don't see any contradiction between God's sovereignty and our free will. The things that God has determined will come to pass and there is nothing that we can do about those things. However, God does not and does not need to determine every single detail. For instance, look at the Garden of Eden. If you take the approach that God determines every event and decision, than God is the Author of sin, since Adam and Eve had no choice. However, if God sovereignly put Adam and Eve in a situation where they could freely choose to obey or disobey, than God is not the Author of sin. We bear full responsiblity for our choice. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | But isn't that a contradiction | Gal 2:17 | Justin White | 13654 | ||
Dear Tim Thank you for your input. Our viewpoint on this subject is the same. Yours in Christ Justin |
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