Results 1 - 6 of 6
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28261 | ||
Nolan, Nolan, Nolan, Peace to you in Jesus' name! Please reread my posts, all of them if you must, and tell me that you truly think I deny the cleansing work of the blood of Christ and God's assurance of eternal life at the moment of apprehension by the Holy Spirit. My friend, I am merely trying to say that some folks don't have the same intellect, the same ability to grasp faith, the same upbringing in a Christian home, the same atmosphere of Judeo-Christian faith, the same environment of relative peace, the same freedom to express feeling or faith. There are those that are not able, for one reason or another, to appropriate and apply the faith that God gives. From a minister's point of view, a person that is touched by the Lord, then immediately starts walking in a manner worthy of this calling, studying the Word, fellowshipping with the saints, responding to the call of service, seeking and manifesting his gifts, this person is a JOY! It 'appears' that the work of the Holy Spirit is done! (Frankly, I don't think I have ever met anyone truly 'done' :-)) But there are just as many, or more, that flail and struggle, stumble and fall, but get back up again and continue to trust in the work of Christ. These are not the 'golden boys,' but the somewhat 'embarrassing' Christians. But they are God's children nonetheless! And I mean NONE THE LESS! My point of describing 'apparent' salvation is for such as these. If we do not explain that the work of the Holy Spirit is ongoing, these saints will be judged (and I mean judged, not discerned) by their peers as unworthy. This is sad and wrong, but true anyway. For you, with your ability to accept by faith complete salvation, there are the Scriptures that support a 'done deal.' Good for you! :-) But for others of weaker constitution, there are Scriptures that clearly speak of God's grace being continually poured out, working afresh today and tomorrow. Their salvation is assured daily (see above Scripture), not upon a past event. Indeed, some look back with shame for their failings, and wonder if the Lord really touched them. Then they open their Bible, or hear the preached Word that says, "My son, your sins are forgiven, again. (and AGAIN!)" You may try to intellectually argue with these people that they are really 'still' saved, but they don't see it the way you do. Nolan, for myself, I see things much the way you do. But I am called to (also) see how others know salvation. I am merely trying to state my observations. I was once told that I was not called to 'relate' with people, but only to 'relay' the message. I did that for a while, but found that it did not bear fruit, but only created a bigoted church. (with MY bigotry!) Several years ago, I said 'sayonara' to that method, and have been blessed with a peace I never knew before. The peace that comes from serving God's people, not MY people. There you have it! Sorry for the inclusion of 'experience!' :-) Love and joy to you in Christ Jesus, charis |
||||||
2 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | Makarios | 28404 | ||
Greetings charis, You must REALLY want to get my attention, since God only repeated Moses' name twice ("Moses, Moses!" [Exodus 3:4]).. :-) I will not deny that I have been gifted with a strong sense of faith! I am able to trust God for what I cannot see and act on His promise, regardless of what comes out of it, in an unwavering belief in His ability to handle everything. And this strong faith that I have been gifted with has helped me to be a greater encouragement to those around me, which is another gift that I have been blessed with. I am still not sure as to where you are coming from or what you mean, but I agree with you when you say that those Christians who struggle are every bit as "saved" as I am, even though I often find myself on a pedestal for my outright and unabased assurance! However, I can see where some would come to doubt their salvation, and this happens to all Christians in at least one point during their journey. However, I do not hold that everything is "said and done" at the moment of salvation, since the process of sanctification has to work itself out in our lives and we have to live for Christ daily, and continue to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I do not believe in just "relaying" the message to people, since it is much better (as you have found) to get with people "where they are" and to see where exactly they are in their walk and in their faith. I have always been strong in the area of faith, and I believe that sometimes people see me as a little "daunting" since I am so sure of myself. But part of my mission is to help others feel this assurance also, and the only way that I can do that is if I am right there in the "trenches" of life with them.. I am thankful that you have given me a chance to share some of my own experience! :-) Blessings to you my friend, Nolan |
||||||
3 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28418 | ||
Dear Nolan, (now that I have your attention! :-)) Greetings to you in the name of Jesus! Friend, you must know what I mean, because your post reflects it! :-) The main difference of opinion that we seem to have is that you separate sanctification, glorification and our eternal walk with the Lord from salvation. I believe that all of these things are an integral part of our salvation. In other words, salvation equals our entire relationship with God, most of which has not yet come to pass, though all of it is assured by His promises. I think that the letters by Peter and James (who were shepherds!) speak of this. Blessings and love to you in Christ Jesus, charis |
||||||
4 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | Makarios | 28449 | ||
Greetings charis, Yes, I agree, if we are operating on two separate definitions for salvation, then we will, of course, have two different conclusions.. But I am without the luxury of searching the Forum for your definition of what salvation is (like I had to do with "apostle"), and I don't quite agree that salvation is equal to everything that we do with the Lord, including our daily walk. I believe that a person is saved only once - one time and one time alone! But there are different aspects to salvation that we may be confusing with each other (like sanctification). I believe that sanctification is almost like a "by-product" of salvation - it happens as a result of salvation. We wouldn't keep saying day after day that the trials and tribulations that we go through are making us "go through salvation" all over again. So this may help in understanding why we both keep coming to different conclusions.. Blessings to you, Nolan |
||||||
5 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | Reformer Joe | 28471 | ||
Nolan: Of course, you are using the term "salvation" as a synonym for "justification," which I hold to be a validly biblical way of looking at it. We are justified only once. The interesting thing, however, is the faith that results in justification is a continuous faith, not a fleeting one. Christ speaks of such a fleeting faith in the parable of the soils: "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away." --Matthew 13:20-21 Apostasy is a real-life thing, so it is also fair to say that while justification is an instantaneous event, it is lifelong in its effect. It is interesting to note that Martin Luther, who gave back to the church justification by faith alone, began his 95 Theses with this statement: "Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance." Repentance unto life is a constant thing that characterizes the whole life of believers, not just one brief moment of a "sinner's prayer." That is the danger of linking salvation to a "decision moment" in time, even though we are justified at the moment we truly place saving faith in the work of Christ alone. --Joe! |
||||||
6 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | Makarios | 28548 | ||
Greetings Joe, I believe that salvation is an instantaneous event, not something that happens over and over again. I believe that our faith is an essential characteristic of our Christian walk, and that we must have it in order to be saved (Ephesians 2:8) or even to please God (Hebrews 11:6). I believe that we continually and constantly live with this salvation that has been given to us by grace (after we have been saved), and I believe that it has an effect in every part of our lives! However, I believe that salvation is not something that is "progressive", even though we must 'progressively' have faith and can "grow" in faith. I also believe that we have been positionally "set apart" when we join the family of God at salvation and confess Him as Lord, regardless of the spiritual state that we have when we come into salvation (1 Cor. 6:11, Hebrews 10:10). But we, of course, are to be "increasingly" set apart in our daily lives (1 Peter 1:16). In the positional sense, no one is more sanctified than another, but in the experimental aspect it is quite correct to speak of one believer as being more sanctified than another. This is where the NT exhortations concerning spiritual growth come into play. Also, I believe that we will not fully be "set apart" to God until our position and practice are brought into perfect accord, and this will only occur when we see Christ and become as He is (1 John 3:1-3). This is our ultimate or future sanctification, which awaits our complete glorification with resurrection bodies (Eph. 5:26-27; Jude 24-25). So, yes, we have been saved! However, the completion of this "journey with Christ" can only be complete when we meet Christ at the finish line. But between the point at which we are saved to the point where we reach the finish line, we are not continually "being saved" over and over again. Yes, we sway and turn away, and then turn back, and then turn away, but a true Christian is characterized by being an overcomer of this world. If one eventually does completely renounce Christ, then I believe that they were never saved to begin with, since I believe that the Lord's promise to us is faithful and true, and that He will perfect that which He has begun. One cannot lose salvation one day and have it the next, and one cannot lose their salvation on a "whim." I do not believe that salvation is lost if we haven't repented for each and every sin that we have committed, although we should repent of each sin, even after we are saved. Our positional and eternal status has been decided and settled forever when we first accepted Christ as Lord and Savior. However, the process of sanctification and of repenting of our sins stops only at the moment we reach the finish line, where every promise will be fulfilled. Blessings to you, Nolan |
||||||