Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28170 | ||
Dear Nolan, Greetings to you in Jesus' name! I must disagree that salvation is only instantaneous, and always accompanied by a new nature and a new life. I have heard the evangelist's boast that those that 'came forward today are completely new people.' Yet I have witnessed that such is not always the case, i.e. some do NOT change into 'completely new people.' The only conclusion I can draw from this observation is that there was either 1)no faith in those that came forth to claim salvation, or 2) salvation is both instantaneous (certain aspects) AND progressive, and that certain aspects of salvation take longer for some to manifest themselves than others. Otherwise we run the risk of calling some 'unsaved' when God HAS justified them by faith, albeit not yet manifest to "us." All I can say is that it doesn't take very long serving in a 'less desirable environment for salvation' to see this. Is it not possible that God sees that which we cannot? I really do want to bring forth the 'practical aspect' of salvation to our forum. :-) Blessings, My friend, in Christ Jesus, charis |
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2 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | Makarios | 28175 | ||
Dear Randy, Greetings to you as well! We may not totally disagree on this subject, my friend.. :-) However, I believe that this post is "crossing threads" with your other thread in its subject matter... When a person is saved by grace through faith, there are several instantaneous facets of salvation that occur: substitution, redemption from sin, reconciliation, propitiation, forgiveness, acceptance, deliverance and cleansing from sin, justification, adoption and eternal life. However, the "experimental" part of salvation is sanctification, which is both instantaneous and progressive. From your response, I am not quite sure what is the basis for your disagreement. I do not believe that any "observation" on your part of the salvation of another person would serve as any basis for you saying that salvation is 'progressive', since you have said yourself "Is it not possible that God sees that which we cannot?".. Therefore, I'm not sure that you can prove through Scripture that salvation as a whole acts in such a way. However, if we solely relied on our experience to justify our beliefs, then I would still hold that salvation is instantaneous, based upon my own salvation experience! And only YOU know what YOU have experienced, my friend! :-) Blessings to you, Nolan |
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3 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28180 | ||
Dear Nolan, Greetings in the name of Jesus! I admit that this post 'crosses threads' with several other posts! :-) You wrote: "When a person is saved by grace through faith, there are several instantaneous facets of salvation that occur: substitution, redemption from sin, reconciliation, propitiation, forgiveness, acceptance, deliverance and cleansing from sin, justification, adoption and eternal life." I agree with most of this list, but I am not quite sure that you could include 'cleansing from sin' and 'eternal life.' True, we could 'claim' present and future cleansing (sanctification?) from sin, and the hope of eternal life is imparted to us, but the (for us) reality is not yet ours. My friend, the basis for my notion of progressive salvation is indeed from the 'experiential' viewpoint. (I recognize that it is dangerous to rely solely on experience, it is equally dangerous to think that one can be without experiential influence. No person has ever been perfectly 'Biblical,' no matter how much they claim it. :-)) In order to shepherd God's people, a minister must 'observe' others. This must be discernment, not judgment. And I have on several occasions discerned faith without manifest 'saintliness.' The alternative is to become one that says, "I'm saved, but this fellow shows forth no fruit, so he must NOT be saved." I have also seen those that made a proclamation of faith, but did not bear fruit for years, so are they not saved until the fruition? I don't think so. The result of my observations AND study of the Word is that salvation is BOTH instantaneous and progressive. You see, my friend, one may think that their salvation experience was complete on a certain date, but I CAN prove through Scripture that no one has ever been cleansed from their sin to the point of sinlessness and saintliness! I thank you for some good points, but I still see that salvation is more than a 'point in time.' Salvation is the complete relationship we have with God, sovereignly initiated by Him in grace through the unction of His Spirit, and continuing until we meet Him in glory! There are many aspects to this salvation that DO occur in an instant, in the 'twinkling of the eye,' but other aspects of our salvation are now working toward the sure completion of His will. If you want to say that "God sees it as done," it is your prerogative, but many (in my humble experience) do not have your level (or standard) of faith. :-) Peace and joy in Christ Jesus, charis |
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4 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | Reformer Joe | 28185 | ||
Randy: I concur with what I think you are saying here, if you mean that sanctification of our wills is a progressive thing that is not completed until we leave this earth. I also say that it is far more than an experiential thing. All throughout the New Testament we see on one hand our salvation as a "done deal" (Romans 8:29-30 is a very good example -- we are already GLORIFIED?). On the other hand, we see that we are "being saved" (1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15). There definitely exists this tension in the Christian life that is explicitly set forward in the biblical text. On the one hand, we are not what we were before (Ephesians 2:3-5). We are not merely "sinners saved by grace." A true transformation has begun. On the other hand, we are certainly not all that we will be (1 Corinthians 15:49 ff. is a beautiful illustration of this, as is Philippians 3:20-21). I hold that the end of the journey for the elect is certain, but it is precisely that: a journey. God in His free grace who initiates our salvation will bring it to completion in His sovereign timing. Of course, we must also take into consideration the warnings against heresy and false brethren. Accepting all as saved simply because they have come forward can get us into an equally huge amount of trouble as automatically rejecting the new convert who is still struggling with (and often losing out to) the "old man." One of the best books I have ever read on the subject is a quite brief and simple one, called "Righteous Sinners: The Believer's Struggle with Faith, Grace, and Works" by Ron Julian. I have noticed that it can be picked up for just a couple of bucks at Christianbook.com, so I hope that you will excuse this shameless plug (I assure you I am getting no kickbacks!). Read it, folks; you will be glad you did! --Joe! |
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5 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28198 | ||
Dear Joe! Greetings in Jesus' name! Well said, sir! I agree heartily with you about heresy and false brethren. Indeed, this 'cheap grace' is available wherever a minister is yearning for 'notches on his evangelical six-gun,' basking in the numbers of 'salvations' attributed his (dead) work. If one needed a license to preach the Good News to the lost, many 'veterans' would be guilty of 'professional negligence' and have their privilege pulled! :-) Seriously, a dearth of responsibility and discernment is evident in the church these days, and spiritual arrogance and self-serving ministry is rampant! I'll try to see if this book is available in Japan. It sounds good! (I'll tell them Joe! sent me :-)) Blessings and love in Christ Jesus, charis |
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