Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | EdB | 91073 | ||
Graceful You said First of all,your statement is addressing the 'gimme gimme' believers but I attribute this to spiritual immaturity and a lack of knowledge of the Word, just as children only view their parents as 'providers' and the issue of 'relationship' comes with maturity. Graceful my statement was addressing 99 percent of the WOF crowd. Yes we are in the kingdom spiritually but not physically. Death Hell and the grave has yet to be cast into the lake of fire. Your absolutely right Jesus' healing ministry was huge! And He heals today. However I don't believe He always heals everyone as we expect. Many times our earth suit is damaged and not repaired until we die. I also do not believe God will heal through men that profit by it. Which includes about 90 percent of the WOF teachers you so defend. Graceful I still and will always believe that your taking promises that were spiritual promises and trying to apply them to our physical condition today. EdB |
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2 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | gracefull | 91236 | ||
"Graceful my statement was addressing 99 percent of the WOF crowd." I doubt you know 99 percent so this is personal opinion. "Yes we are in the kingdom spiritually but not physically. Death Hell and the grave has yet to be cast into the lake of fire." This statement does not address my point. God made provisions for our physical in the spiritual kingdom of God. "However I don't believe He always heals everyone as we expect." Correct...He heals in accordance with His word. "I also do not believe God will heal through men that profit by it. Which includes about 90 percent of the WOF teachers you so defend." I believe people in ministry should receive a salary, and I believe God is the manager of how much. "Graceful I still and will always believe that your taking promises that were spiritual promises and trying to apply them to our physical condition today." You believe 1 Peter 2:24 is 'spiritual' healing and I believe it is both spiritual and physical. And since the KJV crossreferences this verse back to Isaiah 53:4, I am confident in what I believe. God bless my brother. |
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3 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | EdB | 91244 | ||
"I also do not believe God will heal through men that profit by it. Which includes about 90 percent of the WOF teachers you so defend." I believe people in ministry should receive a salary, and I believe God is the manager of how much. Graceful you know this just isn't true. Some of these men have gone to jail for their abuses of money. Yes a man that preaches the word should be paid. However a man that tries to profit from the word is hireling. When you start taking 3 and 4 offerings a night, telling people if they give God will give them whatever they want, telling them the must give a 1000 dolloars to receive all of God's promises is not being paid it is profiteering at the expense of the Gospel. Your right I do not know 99 percent of the WOF people but I have been trained on how to direct their thoughts and I know how 99 percent think. You forget I was WOF I know from what I speak. Your right God did provide for us physically he just didn't guarantee He would heal us when we told Him too. EdB |
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4 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | gracefull | 91358 | ||
"Graceful you know this just isn't true. Some of these men have gone to jail for their abuses of money." Some have gone to jail for fraud...but that was not what you said... "Your right God did provide for us physically he just didn't guarantee He would heal us when we told Him too." I agree. He heals when we BELIEVE. God bless |
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5 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | EdB | 91370 | ||
Graceful Come on you Jesus healed others when they didn't believe. Look at the story of the ten lepers. There are examples of Jesus healing when the person needing the healing had faith, there are examples of when only a person accompanying the person had faith, there are examples when only the requestor had faith the person receiving the healing didn't even know the request had been made. There are examples where no one had any faith except Jesus. Once again you try to put God in a box and say He can only do this if we have the faith. Look at Lazrus he was dead and Jesus called him back. Look at the young man that fell from the window you certainly couldn't say he had faith when Paul brought him back to life. Once more I will repeat it, God can do anything He desires He is God. EdB |
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6 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91380 | ||
Just a quick thought on this matter. If we lack faith, that is NOT a guarantee against recieving healing.. though there are times where unbelief WILL create a situation where healing will NOT come. Even Jesus was in a situation where he could not do many miracles in a place due to chronic unbelief. On the flip side.. the Word of God clearly states that the prayer of FAITH will bring healing, and that if we believe in our heart and ask God we are promised healing. Does that mean.. and here is the sticking point that I see as the basis of this disagreemtn... Does this mean that God will ALWAYS heal if there is enough faith and we've met the other requirements set forth in Scripture? (ie clear of unforgiveness, uncoffessed sin, etc) I think that an argument from Scripture can be built on both sides of the debate. It appears, from Scripture, not everyone was healed but it also appears the healing IS promised and HAS been appropriated for the believers of God. In the end equation, I would place my confidence that I should do all to confess the Word of God on the matter, believing in my heart that God is willing and able to heal me and deliver me. I would continue to pursue God for healing and believing His Word. Faith is a very important part of recieving ANY blessings from God... including salvation. I don't believe we have to "twist God's arm" to deliver on his promises. Just believing will appropriate what he has already promised. There are many precepts in the Word that are difficult to get our minds around, nonetheless.. God clearly HAS stated that faith is the most important part of the equation on our side of things, to recieve from God. By FAITH we inherit the promises. I pray my words do not cause any division.. as I feel that unity in the body is SOOOO much more important than doctrinal debates around "peripheral" points of limited understanding. |
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7 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | EdB | 91538 | ||
Elijah_Jones The problem is WOF leaves no room for God. They acually say it is sinful to pray "thy will be done". They say if you have enough faith and no unconfessed sin you have to be healed. Obviously if your not then it is because you faith wasn't strong enough or you have sin in your life. Do you know what that kind of guilt that can build in grieving people that have just lost a child? Or the lostness this can cause in a person when they need God most as death approaches and they are wondering why their faith wasn't strong enough to heal them? The arguement isn't over peripheral points it is over is God in control or are we through our faith? EdB |
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8 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91549 | ||
I'll offer some of my thoughts on this that I hope will bring clarity to my position regarding the concerns you raise. First of all, it is certainly NOT a sin to pray "thy will be done". It is actually sinful to pray from ANY other attitude, in all reality. Prayer should always be done from a heart of humility and confidence.. not demanding from God, but rather in an effort to agree with what God has said and see God's will come forth on earth as it is in heaven - a stark contrast to what you are saying. I have not seen any respected teacher of the so-called WOF ministry that says otherwise. I have seen people try to claim they do, but have not seen it. I am sure there are many variations of people that might be lumped under a WOF heading, but I don't take all variations to be valid or correct applications of what the more prominent (Kenneth Hagin, Sr. most distinctly comes to mind) WOF teachers have dispensed. I have never seen brother Hagin's teaching to include that it is sinful to pray "Thy will be done". If he has said that in no uncertain terms, I would be in complete disagreement with him, at this point of my understanding. I don't think we can ever directly refute Jesus's own examples and teachings and be doctrinally correct. In fact, that is why I believe so emphatically on the blessings and promises of the Bible. If He says it or promises it, then even if my experience APPEARS to say otherwise, he is right and my experience is wrong. I think the foundation of this whole argument is not who is in control, us or God. There is no question there. But rather.. what has God promised to us and what can we expect from Him. How sure is His word on the matter of healing. What must we do to build our faith so that IF it is the limiting factor in a given healing situation.. we can position ourselves to build it up and get rid of that obstacle. The truth that I have come to believe is that more often than not, lack of faith IS the reason that we don't see FAR more healing and provision in Christian's lives than we do. I don't believe that is due to lack of faith in God, but rather a limited understanding of just how much God has promised us in His word. "My people perish for lack of knowledge" is an appropriate commentary on precisely this situation. God's perfect will is demonstrated in heaven. We are to pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. How much sickness or lack of provision is there in heaven? How sure can we be that God WILL supply for our needs ( and not necessarily our SELFISH WANTS). How sure can we be that God is willing and able to heal us, if there be no GREATER PURPOSE for us to continue in afflication (and that is a big sticking point.. though I believe that far more often we use that as a crutch than a valid reality). WOF, as you are referring.. at its basic tenets not only leaves room for God, but is TOTALLY dependent upon the understanding of God's power, will, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness. Far from leaving no room for God, true WOF teaching is impotent apart from Him. On the final matter of people being abused thru such teaching. True teaching of the power of the Word of God in Faith, will build up and offer hope. There is NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. I see this same thing buffet people that have trouble getting free of addiction and other sins, that are genuine Christians, but are perishing for lack of knowledge of what Christ HAS (past tense) already accomplished for them. Neil T. Anderson does a magnificent job of illuminating that situation in his book, The Bondage Breaker. I see strong parallels there.. although I do not consider the inability to appropriate God's healing due to lack of faith as necessarily sinful. Faith in Jesus can be vital and full, and due to lack of understanding of God's PROVISIONS AND PROMISES, there be lack of faith for healing. So.. guilt coming upon a person due to lack of faith for healing is NOT from God or of any benefit to anyone. With a grateful and thankful heart, we can look expectantly to our Lord to deliver us from sickness and lack of provision.. not to demand anything from Him.. since why must one DEMAND what is already something purchased for us?? Think of the foolishness of that! If I, being an imperfect parent, will go out and buy something for my children.. I'm usually very EAGER to give it to them and see the smile upon their faces. Certainly they don't need to demand, but rather to simply recieve with thankful hearts that which they have asked for. Isn't that precisely what Jesus promised us in Matt 7:11? Confidence in God's promise is certainly different from demanding God to do things our way. Instead, we simply must align ourselves to His promises, and let His words fill our hearts and our mouths. And any teaching to the contrary, I would find disagreement with. |
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9 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | EdB | 91556 | ||
Elijah_Jones Every major WOF teacher I can think of has said it wrong to pray God's will be done. I can furnish quotes but you can read them for yourself in the Book called Christianity in Crisis. The WOF premise is that God has to do our beck n call. Yes God did make us promises but with the exception of salvation the rest are done in God's timing, according to His glory and purpose. God never said he had to heal anyone. God never said he had to make someone rich. God never said he had to fix the situation we got ourselves into. However God does do these things but He does it to teach us lessons, to refine us, to bring Glory to His name, to accomplish His purpose. The fact you quote Neil Anderson tells me you do not have discernment operating in your life. He has a demon hidding behind every bush and blames most of our human fleshly lust on demons. He misses one very important point. Our flesh is the problem not some demon. Yes I beleive in Demons and yes they cause problems, but 99 percent of what happens on this earth is not the work of a Demons but the work of unrestrained flesh. Enough said about Neil. WOF has to place the gult somewhere if their formula does not work. Obviously they or their formula can't be wrong so the problem has to be your faith or your unconfessed sin. They have defined what God HAS to do so if it doesn't happen the problem has to be yours. What I'm saying is God is sovereign, He does as he pleases as it serves His purpose. We must trust God when he says He will make all things (even sickness and death) work to the good of those that love Him and are called to His purpose. EdB |
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10 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91582 | ||
After reading your replies and reflecting on the various discussions you have participated in, I have been led to conclude a few things. Firstly, you appear to operate on a fair amount of heresay and false conjecture. You are gathering much of your information from so-called "watchdog" societies. I would counsel you to begin to investigate these matters for yourself against the light of Scripture. The fact you attack Neil Anderson in the fashion you do tells me you have not read his work with any degree of objectivity, if you've read them at all. Don't take my word for it.. let me quote a well respected preacher, Chuck Swindoll, as he gives his opinion on the book I referenced. He states " A calm, practical, workable plan from Scripture that results in freedom and victory for the child of God. Neil Anderson is one of the most experienced and dependable authorities in America today". (quote from Chuck Swindoll concerning the book THE BONDAGE BREAKER) You incorrectly assert that Neil Anderson has a demon hiding behind every bush. You again assert, incorrectly, that our primary spiritual struggle is the flesh. I have first hand and extensive experience in seeing people freed from addictions and perversions that they were completely trapped in. I know of a man personally trapped in satanic ritual, homosexuality who was HIV positive. He was delivered and restored to the body of Christ. I was privelaged to be in attendance when he was cured of HIV.. and have the lab tests to prove it. If you had read the material, you would understand that Anderson asserts that the lusts of the flesh is what the lies of the enemy and his host use to cause the Child of God to be tempted and succumb to sin. The bible says this: Eph 6:10-20 This is one of the most clear and conscise statements in all of Scripture pertaining to our struggle against sin and the means to combat it. To discount the spiritual forces behind the deceptions we believe would be a grave error indeed. Anderson also states quite plainly the main weapon in the enemy's arsenal is DECEPTION.. and that the solution is to be armed with the TRUTH as laid out in scripture. Ed, I plead with you that you would discontinue your rails against people who's ministry has brought FAR more people to Christ and set them free in the truth of who we are in Christ, than you and I have. It is not fitting for the child of God to do so against his co-laborers. You are also repeatedly quoting excesses and abuses of the basic teachings as though the excesses in themselves ARE the teachings. That is no more true than the distortions brought forth by "conservative fundamentalists" that put a yoke of bondage upon people because they emphasize works over grace. I've seen as much or more spiritual abuse, guilt, and damage from those teachings as I have from charismatic or wof distortions. Yet, I would be foolish to condemn the basic tenets of the conservative fundamental orientations, as they are also based in truths of Scripture. It is only when we take them past the point of balance that they become an aberation to the truth of God. Finding that balance is the real trick, isn't it? The best illustration I can think of to clarify my point is this: How does one come to understand the severity of God's judgement and the breadth, width, and heighth of his mercy? We look at the cross. Where the terrible anger of God against sin meets the unrelenting mercy and forgiveness of God. Where the depravity of sin in man, responsible for placing God upon a tree to be mocked, tortured, and killed meets the words of Christ: "Father, forgive them.. for they know not what they do". One need not discount the severity and righteous judgement of God nor the mercies of God to the exclusion of the other.. even though without the picture of the cross it would be hard to understand how God has one foot firmly planted in both camps. So it often is with our foolish judgements and arguments in finding faults with those charged in restoring biblical truths lost to the church thru the dark ages and subsequent restoration of truths lost in that period. Lastly.. you charge me with lack of discernment. I would like you to prayerfully reconsider that accusation. Ed, I have no desire to argue with you and prove myself right and you wrong. I am sharing with you my understandings and some of my experiences. That doesn't, of itself, prove anything. It is just information for you to take and hopefully give thought to. I realize you have had to deal with the excesses and abuses of those who have twisted the basic tenets of the principles we've been discussing. I have too. I've also had to deal with tremendous shame and guilt within people that were raised in fundamental orthodox Christianity. Trust me when I say, it is just as damaging.. and in ways even MORE difficult to work through. |
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11 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | EdB | 91670 | ||
Elijah_Jones Discernment is a gift and when utilized correctly it can lead keep us from deception. If it is not used we tend to see things not as they are but as we would like to believe them to be. When we have people that understand this human trait and can paint pictures that are pleasing to our eyes we tend to ignore what they really say and listen only to what we want them to say. It is a trend that has haunted the church from the first century it is known as Gnosticism. Today it rears it’s ugly head by painting people themselves in quite perfect pictures. Their sin nature is overlooked and the problems are blamed elsewhere. Jesus spoke of this when we he warned that the time was coming when people would no longer look for sound doctrine, but seek instead the things that tickled their ears. Nobody wants to hear the problems they have are their own making because they refused to bridle their flesh, how much easier is it to blame their troubles on an unseen source of problems. Nobody wants to hear that living the Christian life is hard requiring sacrifices, they want to hear instead about the benefits. Your right I don listen to the watch dogs organizations. They are our watchmen on the walls, they warn us of the approaching enemy. The word says when the enemy comes and the watch remains silent the blood of the victims are on the watchman’s hands. However if the watchman sounds the alarm and the people fail to heed the warning their blood in on their own hands. These false teachers are peddling their wares in a very affluent society and they are becoming rich basically selling the gospel. Two things are interesting in this. First what they do only works here in the US, other nations either don’t have the money to interest them or know better than to suckered into buying what they sell. Second the people that say these teachers are picking your pockets are treated as the thieves while the pickpockets stand behind their victims and stick their tongue out. I was trained in Word of Faith Ministry, I know many of these preachers but more importantly I know how many live when not in the public view. I know how they talk about the flock, I know how they practice and rehearse, I know of what I speak. However I sense you are closed to what I’m saying so there is no point in going on. However if you ever find yourself without hope because the WOF formula has let you down. I will be here on the forum come back and we can talk. Be at peace, be a blessing to others EdB |
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12 | Knocked out by holy spirit | Matt 16:6 | Elijah_Jones | 91686 | ||
"Discernment is a gift and when utilized correctly it can lead keep us from deception." my response: Unfortunately, what is often referred to as discernment is nothing more than fear which stems from our trusting OUR ability to follow rather than the LORD'S ability to lead. Learning to recognize and trust the Lord's voice is the first step in true discernment. This is not a subjective thing, but rather an intimate familiarity that comes as we read the Word, pray, worship, and fellowship with the body of Christ. "Their sin nature is overlooked and the problems are blamed elsewhere" my response: I don't find much in the way of any of these teacher's teaching that excuses or placates sin. Quite the opposite, actually. In fact, obedience to the Lord is a very real requirement to experience the blessing of the Lord. "Jesus spoke of this when we he warned that the time was coming when people would no longer look for sound doctrine, but seek instead the things that tickled their ears." my response: These were doctrines of demons, being referred to.. or in other words, deceptions. Specifically, things like condoning or excusing the following: Sexual immorality, homosexuality, adultery, drunkeness, deciet, thieving, etc. The Word says that permission for these practices will enter the church. We need look no further than the headlines in the news today of ordinations taking place to see precisely what this warning is about. Nowhere does this warning imply that those who encourage the Body to take God's Word for what it means are guilty of this. And, by the way, I am not making a justifiable case for anyone that uses these basic teachings to line their own pockets from selfish ambitions. They will answer before the Lord on that matter. But their abuse does not constitute a flaw in the basic doctrine. In fact, Jesus said many would take the true practices of God to serve themselves without any allegiance or familiarity with Him. To them he said that they would cast out demons, perform miracles, and prophesy and yet he did not know them. That does not discount that all of these practices are Scriptural and necessary to the building up of the Kingdom. "Nobody wants to hear that living the Christian life is hard requiring sacrifices, they want to hear instead about the benefits." my response: Both sacrifice and blessings are required and bestowed upon the believer. We are in error when we believe otherwise. What precisely those sacrifices and blessings are, is really the crux of the matter, isn't it? "Your right I don listen to the watch dogs organizations." ( I assume you mean do and not don't, within the context of your argument) my response: Watch dogs are very different than watchman. Prophetically, I find it very interesting that these societies spend so much of their time accusing the body of Christ. You see, the difference between a watch dog and a watchman is profound. The dog will bark at every unfamiliarity to them, whether friend or foe. They lack true understanding and discernment except to what they are sure is already familiar to them in thier limited understanding. A watchman, on the other hand, examines the credentials of who approaches the gate and requests admittance. In this case, the credentials they must examine is the authenticity of the teaching against the light of Scripture. You trust these watchdog societies in their appraisals.. even though they often conflict amongst themselves. I do not do so, without first examining in light of Scripture humbly before the Lord for his admonition, correction, and direction. I find it interesting that the vast bulk of your argument is silent where Scripture is concerned. You speak of excesses and abuses that I have nowhere defended nor excused. Unfortunately, it appears some bad experiences have colored your discernment and perception on these matters, and you have thus thrown the baby out with the bathwater. As a wise and wonderful man of God once said to me.. "Eat the wheat, and spit out the chaff". The picture of these watchdogs barking at every preacher and teaching that doesn't fit their particular paradigm of religion is a very fitting and powerful allegory. (end of part one.. sorry for the long post. Continues in part two) |
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