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NASB | Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, "I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." [2 Cor 12:4; Rev 2:7] |
Subject: Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. |
Bible Note: "What trait declared Abraham righteous? Was it not faith. Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." What was his faith in? God providing a redeemer. What did David look to? God providing a redeemer. Name a righteous person they were looking for redemption the Messiah." I am not sure what you are getting at here, Ed. We both agree that Abraham and David were declared righteous on the basis of their faith. But both Abraham and David had that coming redemption revealed to them. They didn't just wake up one morning, look up at creation, and say, "I am a sinner and God is going to provide redemption for me." God specifically revealed himself to Abraham, called him and made a specific promise to him. David was one of God's covenant people, with the Torah which pointed to the Lamb of God which was to take away they sins of the world. Both were directly given the gospel in its OT form. What about the Mayan living in Mesoamerica at the time of Isaiah? Do we have any evidence that the gospel was given to him? That is a completely different story. Is it impossible that God gave the gospel to him? Of course we cannot say it is impossible, but Scripture seems pretty clear that in the Old Testament the oracles of God were given to the nation of Israel (Romans 3:1-2). The woman at the well acknowledged that "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:24). All the OT saints after the giving of the Law were either Israelites or Gentiles who joined the covenant people of Israel. Why would God so clearly show himself to some and make absolutely no mention in the almost 1200 chapters of the Bible to salvation for anyone outside of his covenant people (whether that be OT Israel or the church)? "But is the reason given in Romans 1:17 !" Romans 1:17 does not mention anything about people being "without excuse." Romans 1:17 says that the GOSPEL is the power of salvation for everyone who believes. Romans 1:18-20 explains in no uncertain terms why all men are "without excuse," and the reason given has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ, but rather the clear perception of the eternal power and divine nature of the Father was met with sinful suppression in unrighteousness. This is not rejection of the gospel; this is why we NEED the gospel. We then see the "no excuses card" directed toward the Jews at the beginning of Romans 2, because they commit the same sins the Gentiles outside the covenant do. They are condemned because of their works, not their lack of belief. Nowhere do we see the term "without excuse" linked only to those who have had a gospel presentation. "I have never said nor do I intend to say there is any form of redemption other than Jesus Christ. I did suggest that God in his mercy, grace, love, and justice MAY make known Jesus Christ to others in ways we have no knowledge of. While that seems highly unlikely particularly in the light of scripture Roman 10:14. I do not believe that is completely ruled out. I have heard of testimonies of people seeking and worshipping a redeemer sent by God without knowing his name. That is all I was saying. Now if you know for a fact that does not happens then I stand in awe of you. And there is nothing else to discuss." Come on, Ed. I am not some monstrous "know-it-all" for saying the Scripture gives no hope for salvation outside the direct, outward revelation of Jesus Christ. I do not know for an absolute fact that green elephants do not live on Pluto, either; but I don't think anyone would "stand in awe of me" for declaring that it is my firm, unwavering belief that there are no green elephants on Pluto. And what we are talking about with the gospel is a more extreme case than that. All biblical accounts of salvation are accompanied by a direct, sensory revelation of the gospel by angel, human beings, or the Lord Himself. Even Cornelius was told by an angel to send for Peter so that the gospel would be presented to him orally. Can God save without His word? Sure, but the Bible indicates that He does not. By every account, the Spirit works through the word (1 Thessalonians 1:5; 1 Corinthians 2:1-5). Otherwise, how is one to understand verses like Romans 10:14? The entire force of Paul's argument is deflated if what you say is true. |