Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | RElderCascade | 3463 | ||
Male dominance is an unfortunate unbiblical way to live out the gospel. Equality between men and women is the Biblically accurate approach. Especially in marriage and it carries over into all of life including co-laboring in the gospel. Therefore the Biblical reason for not placing women in authority over men in the church has nothing to do with dominance or tradition or attitudes toward women. The real issue prohibiting women pastors is headship, that is what 1 Tim 2:8-15 is referring to. The reason given is directly related to Adam’s accountability to God. Adam was first created, not Eve, therefore God communed in different ways with him than with the woman. Essentially Adam was originally given the responsibility to account to God for the woman, we see that is still true in Paul's epistle to Timothy. Paul says so by saying that it is substantive that Adam was not deceived, Eve was. God doesn't let the woman off the hook, instead He calls out for the responsible party to speak for the couple (remember Adam was given the command to tend the garden and not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil--Eve wasn’t created yet). “Eve was deceived not Adam”, Adam shrunk from his position as head, Eve in her deception usurped Adam’s headship. Why else did God hold Adam responsible (rom. 5:18-19), since he wasn't deceived, the woman was? Certainly Paul is faithful enough to not shrink from crediting Eve if it was true that she is to blame? Adam tried to blame Eve but God holds him responsible. Look at the curses: Eve was cursed with pain in childbirth and in the eternal struggle with her husband’s authority; Adam was cursed with death, starting with effort/pain in work, and death (return to the earth). But Eve died also, because what happens through the head also happens to the woman. The issue that prohibits women in leadership is unhangable due to the creation order. Adam was the head over Eve before the fall and after the fall, and men today are the head over women (Eph 5:22). Eve’s accountability failings from the fall are permanent according to the New Testament, just as Adam’s are; sin (death) is still with us and the woman’s struggle for headship over the man is too. It is the latter issue that states women are not to be put in authority over a man spiritually. Review, male domination is not Biblical, equality with male headship is. Through the fall conditions stated in the curses are permanent, one of these that really comes from the creation order is unhangable no matter what trends exist in modern Evangelicalism. Namely, female headship is unbiblical. I have had the benefit to learn from my former pastor (who taught Old Testament at Trinity Evangelical Div./ Deerfield Ill.) who you can read more on this subject in “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, an Evangelical Response” by Piper and Grudem (it is a great book with many contributions in it). Read Chapter three by Raymond Ortlund Jr. on this to get the full thought, he was my teacher, I commend him to you. His conclusion about the similarity between male dominance and Evangelical Feminism is hot, and for some may prove to be life changing. |
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2 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37037 | ||
I Timothy 2:11-14 A woman [gyne] should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman [gyne] to teach or to have authority over a man [aner]; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman [gyne] who was deceived and became a sinner. (NIV) Ephesians 5:21-24 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives [gyne], submit to your husbands [aner] as to the Lord. For the husband [aner] is the head of the wife [gyne] as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives [gyne] should submit to their husbands [aner] in everything. (NIV) I disagree with your assessment as stated here: "The issue that prohibits women in leadership is unhangable [sic] due to the creation order. Adam was the head over Eve before the fall and after the fall, and men today are the head over women (Eph 5:22)." I do not dispute the headship of the husband over the wife - although what this means is debatable. But when you say that MEN today are the head over WOMEN, you are distorting scripture. The passages you quote refer to the husband/wife relationship specifically, not to male/female relationships in general and certainly not to leadership questions in general - only those that would place a wife over the headship of HER OWN husband. It is no accident that Paul refers to Adam and Eve, who were not only the first man and woman, but also the first husband and wife. The Greek word translated "man" in these verses is aner, the word translated "woman" is gyne - these words can also be translated husband/wife - the interpretation based on context. To take passages that clearly refer to the husband/wife relationship and make them apply to all male/female relationships and the topic of leadership in general is inaccurate. |
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3 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | RElderCascade | 37188 | ||
It appears that you concluded your post asking me to accept that 1 Timothy 2:12 is a clear reference to marriage? If so, why doesn't Paul use the genitive possessive in front of the word for woman? There are many ways to interpret another language and an interpretive decision must be made. But that interpretive decision isn't a thoughtful (therefore incomplete) one if one merely lists the other ways a thing could be interpreted. Don't you agree that this is not compelling enough by itself -- don't you really prefer to get some weight of reason based on the text and on the rules of grammar? You did not respond to my reasoning where I observed that headship is still true today. Read again (and I am sorry for its length, I really feel it was condensed, but still long) my article where I said .."Essentially Adam was originally given the responsibility to account to God for the woman, we see that is still true in Paul's epistle to Timothy. Paul says so by saying that it is substantive that Adam was not deceived, Eve was. God doesn't let the woman off the hook, instead.. Would you please summarize the flow of thought there and get back to me? I would like to be sure you have interacted with all the weight of evidence before I give you my full response. |
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4 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37264 | ||
I have no idea what a genitive possessive is, sorry. The reason that 1 Timothy 2:12 refers to marriage is context: Paul refers to Adam and Eve, who were husband and wife, and to the woman-wife (singular) bearing children in v.15. I'm sure that Paul didn't have in mind just any male/female relationship - but the marriage relationship leading to child bearing. To construe this passage as referencing ANY male/female relationship, or meaning headship of men to women in general, would impy that any man could lawfully impregnate any woman, wouldn't it? I did state in one of my many posts, that headship DOES exist today, but not all men over all women as you stated (at least I think it was you, someone did!) - but as headship of the husband over the wife as in Eph. 5:22. As for the deceived part, I need to re-read your original post, as I've forgotten what point you were making with that, OK? |
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5 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | RElderCascade | 37284 | ||
Thank you for promising to re-read my article, it will be worth your time, I took some notable time on it. Genitive possessive is the key to how one might know how to translate the word woman in 1 Timothy 2:12. You made use of Greek without a care for the parts of grammar. You must not do that. According to Douglas Moo (a very gifted Greek scholar) the absence of a definite article or possessive pronoun before the word for woman makes one translate it "woman", not wife. In Eph. 5:21-25 there is a possessive pronoun "her" is used which tips off the translator that "wife" is the best choice to translate the Greek word. In 1 Timothy 2 there is no definite article or possessive pronoun used, therefore "woman" is the best translation. The context is indeed telling the story but differently than you think. Don't you remember I oppose (with powerful reasoning) the idea of male dominance? Why don't you summarize why I find the Bible to teach male female equality not male dominance, I want to hear from you regarding that evidence in my article before I will respond to your statement "all men over all women", that is out of context! Another strong piece of contextual evidence for why the translators of every English version of the Bible I could find are in agreement that the word is best translated woman not wife in 1 Tim 2 is the warning to dress modestly. Surely you wouldn't say that the (same Greek) word should be translated "wives" there? That would lead one to believe that the single women could/should go ahead and dress immodestly. Otherwise they are the ones who had this in check and needed no exhortation, which is completely without any textual evidence for concluding at all. We must be consistent when we apply an interpretation, and without using the rules of grammar there is no hope of being consistent at all. |
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6 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37930 | ||
I apologize for the delay in replying, hope to get to it soon. I also apologize if any of you have tried to get to my website but couldn't, it appears to be offline because of excess bandwidth. Please try again later, Thanks, OldTimer. | ||||||
7 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | RElderCascade | 37931 | ||
Keep studying, I've been reading many other things recently as well. You must get Piper and Grudem's book: Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood from Crossway Books. It is very worth it! | ||||||
8 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37933 | ||
What Paul Really Said About Women by John Temple Bristow is also very enlightening. Talk to you soon, OT | ||||||