Results 1 - 2 of 2
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Who is Jesus' God? | John 3:16 | Tara1 | 111977 | ||
Greetings to you Huron, I've not written to you before. I hope you appreciate this study of this verse. This reply is long but covers the subject well. What you wrote, you only wish it was that easy. :-) No, this verse in the Greek does not say that. Hebrews 1:8 says: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your [the Son’s] throne forever and ever.’” This shows that Jesus’ throne, his office or authority as a sovereign, has its source in Jehovah the Almighty God. True, the Authorized Version, or King James Version, renders Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, these translators have it that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. This cannot be correct. First, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him. Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, more specifically the Greek Septuagint which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that [‘Elo·him´, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. . . . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’” The New World Translation and a number of other translations render Hebrews 1:8 as, “God is your throne.” (Please note: An American Translation, Moffatt; also the marginal reading in American Standard Version, Revised Standard Version and The New English Bible.) This makes it clear that the “Son,” Jesus Christ, has a God who is higher than he is. Quite frankly, and many take offense to being frank but the truth of the matter is Hebrews 1:8 in translation you used, is mistranslated to support the trinity doctrine. Greek scholars Edgar j. Goodspeed, James Moffatt and Stephen T. Byington agree with the NWT of this verse. Read and see for yourself the alternative readings for this verse offered by the RSV and NEB, and you will see a definite theological bias in the KJV. So, in Greek, the verse reads as follows: pros de ton huion ho thronos sou ho Theos eis ton aiona tou aionos kai he rhabdos tes euthutetos rhabdos tes basileias autou (Westcott-Hort). Also the TEV translates the passage in a way that would seem to uphold the notion that Christ is God on some level. It says: "About the Son, however, God said: "Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever! You will rule over your people with justice," whereas Byington's Bible in Living English renders Heb. 1:8 thusly: "but as to the Son 'God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of integrity is the scepter of his reign.' From a comparison of the two Bible versions cited above, translational and theological questions immediately come to the fore. Heb. 1:8 makes us wonder how we are to understand what the book of Hebrews says about the ontological status of our Lord and Savior. Does the book of Hebrews teach that Jesus is Almighty God? Alternatively, does it ontologically subordinate him to the Father? Let’s approach Heb. 1:8 from three primary perspectives: (1) From an Old Testament perspective (2) From a cotextual perspective. That is, I will examine the word proskuneo in Heb. 1:6 and try to discern how its meaning bears on one's understanding of Theos and thronos in Heb. 1:8. (3) Lastly, I will consider the syntax of Heb. 1:8 and attempt to determine how one either should or might construe the word order in the said passage. I will argue that Heb. 1:8 should be interpreted as a royal account that religiously delineates the kingly status of the risen and exalted Christ without attributing to him, full Deity. We will therefore begin by outlining the structure of Heb. 1:1-8 and discussing verse by verse how each unit of the text contributes to understanding Heb. 1:8. Tara1 |
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2 | Who is Jesus' God? | John 3:16 | kalos | 111999 | ||
'To say "God is your throne" doesn't make sense.' 'The Watchtower organization denies that Jesus is God. Therefore, it cannot permit any verses in the Bible to even hint that Jesus is God. That is why they choose a translation that does not best fit the context or overall theology of the Bible.' ____________________ '"But with reference to the Son: 'God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness'" The New World Translation. 'In this particularly interesting verse, God is addressing the Son. The Greek construction of Hebrews 1:8 allows the text to be translated in two legitimate ways: '"God is your throne forever and ever.... and '"Thy Throne O God, is forever and ever..." 'But because of the Watchtower presupposition that Jesus is not God, they choose the first version, otherwise, the Father would be calling Jesus God and that goes against Jehovah's Witness theology. Yet, most Bibles do not translate it the way the New World Translation does. They choose the other way. Why? Two reasons. 'First, Heb. 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45:6, which says, '"Thy Throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy Kingdom" (All Bible quotes are from the NASB). 'In fact, the ASV, KJV, NIV, and NKJV all translated it as "Your throne, O God..." The RSV translates it as "Your divine throne endures for ever and ever," "but this is a highly unlikely translation because it requires understanding the Hebrew noun for "thrown" in construct state, something extremely unusual when a noun has a pronomial suffix, as this one does...The KJV, NIV, and NASB all take the verse in its plain, straightforward sense, as do the ancient translations..."1 'When we look at the Hebrew, we see that there is no grammatical requirement for this translation, though it is considered to be the best translation by most translators. In and of itself, this is not conclusive because the context of this verse in Psalm 45 is dealing with a king which would make one wonder why he would be addressed as God. But, it is not uncommon for NT writers to take a verse in the OT that seemingly deals with one subject and apply it to another. They knew something we didn't. In fact, in Ezekiel 28:12-17 is a section that deals with the fall of the devil. Verse 13 says describes how he was in the garden of Eden. Verse 14 says he was the anointed cherub, (v. 15), etc. But the context of this section begins with an address to the king of Tyre (v. 12). Yet, right after Ezekiel is told to write to the King of Tyre he then goes on to describe what the great majority of theologians agree with is a description of the devil's fall. So, we need to look at the context that the writer of Hebrews put Psalm 45:6 into. He addressed it to Jesus. Therefore, Psalm 45 is a Messianic Psalm and must in interpreted in light of the NT, not the other way around. 'Nevertheless, the context of this verse follows: '"For to which of the angels did He ever say, "Thou are My son, Today I have begotten Thee"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me"? 6And when he again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." 7And of the angels He says "Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire." 8But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom, 9Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy companions. 10And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands; 11They will perish, but though remainest...." (Heb. 1:5-11). 'To say "God is your throne" doesn't make sense. What does it mean to say, "But to which of the angels did he say, God is your throne." What would that mean? Is God, Jesus' throne? God alone is on His throne and He isn't a throne for anyone else. (. . . ) 'The Watchtower organization denies that Jesus is God. Therefore, it cannot permit any verses in the Bible to even hint that Jesus is God. That is why they choose a translation that does not best fit the context or overall theology of the Bible.' ________________ 1. Grudem, Wayne, Systematic Theology, Intervarsity Press, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1994, page 227. ________________ (www.carm.org/jw/heb1_8.htm) |
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