Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | Reformer Joe | 64183 | ||
But they do know... "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." --Romans 1:18-20 --Joe! |
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2 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | EdB | 64265 | ||
Joe I believe this passage is telling us every man is God conscious. Meaning man knows intrinsically that there is a higher power or being, man has a natural desire to worship something. Nature testifies there has to be a God. But that is a long step from there to Jesus. Hence we have various religions like Buddhist, Islam, Hindu and the list goes on. I’m not sure how God deals with those that have never heard of Jesus, but Jesus’ testimony was that no man can come to the father but by Him. Therefore if these others are going to be saved they must be told Jesus is the only way. How and if that is done neither I nor anyone can speak to since we simply don’t know, the Bible is silent on this issue. We have to trust God and His justice and be real glad we heard and received the message. EdB |
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3 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | Reformer Joe | 64281 | ||
You wrote: "I believe this passage is telling us every man is God conscious. Meaning man knows intrinsically that there is a higher power or being, man has a natural desire to worship something. Nature testifies there has to be a God. But that is a long step from there to Jesus. Hence we have various religions like Buddhist, Islam, Hindu and the list goes on." I agree with this; however, the passage says more than that man is aware of a "higher being." Buddhism and Islam and Hinduism and atheism are the direct results of man's sinful suppression of the true God, who has made himself clear. And as far as how God deals with them, I think Romans 1:18 says it in pretty clear terms: wrath. "We have to trust God and His justice and be real glad we heard and received the message." The proclamation of the Gospel, in my understanding, is an act of God's mercy, not His justice. And I, too, am glad that he showed mercy to me and sent the message my way! --Joe! |
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4 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | EdB | 64308 | ||
Joe First we don't know the answer to these questions and I'm quite sure we do not have a full understanding of God's mercy, love, grace or justice. Let's look at Abraham, he lived in a town of Ur a pagan city, his very father was a idol maker and possibly even Abraham. I think we can say he had a god awareness, but he probably was not worshipping the one true living God. God then revealed Himself to Abraham and Abraham had faith in the living God and his coming salvation. The rest of the story you know. A question remains, what would have happened to Abraham had not God spoken to him? We do not know. I think of Paul on Athens and the idol to the unknown god. Paul then told them who that unknown God was. Before Paul they knew there as a more powerful god but they didn’t know Him as the Living God that provided a way of salvation through Jesus. What would have happened to them if Paul hadn’t been so faithful? Romans also says our God conscious gives us an understanding of righteousness, we understand what is right and what is wrong. Many recognize they fall short of that and then do penance, sacrifice whatever trying to make themselves acceptable. We call it pagan religions. I guess the philosophical question then is, do any of these people realize they can not make themselves acceptable to God and then trust and have faith in God to make a way for them to be justified? If so how does God do this? What we do know is God has spoken to us, through the preaching of Jesus therefore we are without excuse. Jesus also charged each of us to be His witness. EdB |
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5 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | Reformer Joe | 64317 | ||
Ed: You wrote: "First we don't know the answer to these questions and I'm quite sure we do not have a full understanding of God's mercy, love, grace or justice." I think we do have the answers to these questions in Scripture. I may never fully grasp the extent of God's grace, but I can trust what the Bible says about sin, judgment, everyone being without excuse before a holy God, and justification through faith in Christ and nothing else. As much as some would like a "God gives everyone a chance" scenario, it just can't be found in Scripture. ALL the Biblical evidence points against it. I would like to add one other corollary to the problem with the possibility of salvation for those who haven't heard. To me, if your scenario is true, it would be a horribly cruel thing to evangelize unreached peoples. If those who have not heard possibly have an excuse, then why make them hear, on the chance that they would reject the truth upon hearing it? Your scenario is one of the biggest arguments against evangelism, if it is true. You wrote: "God then revealed Himself to Abraham and Abraham had faith in the living God and his coming salvation. The rest of the story you know. A question remains, what would have happened to Abraham had not God spoken to him? We do not know." We could play "what if" games with every saint in history, and my answer will be the same: no special revelation means no salvation. God in his decree included Abraham as a key figure in His redemptive plan, so He made sure that Abraham heard and believed. You wrote: "Romans also says our God conscious gives us an understanding of righteousness, we understand what is right and what is wrong. Many recognize they fall short of that and then do penance, sacrifice whatever trying to make themselves acceptable. We call it pagan religions." Romans 2 does comment on the conscience, which also is part of general revelation. People innately know the difference between right and wrong. However, that serves to CONDEMN them, as Paul clearly shows in that chapter. The whole theme of Romans 1 and 2 is repeated time after time: all humans, Jews and Gentiles alike, are WITHOUT EXCUSE. They know God's attributes and character, they know the difference between right and wrong, and they consistently (apart from the Holy Spirit) choose the wrong. You wrote: "I guess the philosophical question then is, do any of these people realize they can not make themselves acceptable to God and then trust and have faith in God to make a way for them to be justified?" Not without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, who convinces the sinner of her helplessness and enlightens the mind and persuades the sinner to embrace the content of the gospel. It would not be very consistent of a sovereign God to send His Spirit to enlighten the mind and not send His gospel at the same time. If He can do one, He certainly can do both, wouldn't you say? "If so how does God do this?" Through His WORD and His Spirit, most often through His people. He does not save apart from the gospel's proclamation, even if He does it Himself (in the case of Abraham and that of Paul). You wrote: "What we do know is God has spoken to us, through the preaching of Jesus therefore we are without excuse." Read Romans 1 and 2 again. It is not the preaching of Jesus that leaves people without excuse. What leaves humans without excuse, according to the text? That is the whole point of the first three and a half chapters of Romans. --Joe! |
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6 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | EdB | 64321 | ||
Joe I see where were heading down that same long dark road. I do not care to wander there. Before I disembark let me just offer a few things to think about. I said we don’t fully understand god’s mercy, love, grace, and justice. You attempted to answer that by saying scripture tells you about sin. These are opposites they do not explain each other they contrast each other. While we can completely understand sin we can be very much in the dark in regards to grace. That is not an answer to my statement. Also do not read into my statement I made no attempt to say God provided another means of salvation outside Jesus Christ Romans 2:14-15 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, Joe you asked what the message of Roman 1and 2 was. It is saying people are without excuse for not having faith that God would provide a payment for their sin. Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith." You questioned my statement, “"What we do know is God has spoken to us, through the preaching of Jesus therefore we are without excuse." Let me say this way then Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. EdB |
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7 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | Reformer Joe | 64323 | ||
"I said we don?t fully understand god?s mercy, love, grace, and justice. You attempted to answer that by saying scripture tells you about sin. These are opposites they do not explain each other they contrast each other." With all due respect, Ed, I said much more than that. "While we can completely understand sin we can be very much in the dark in regards to grace." We can believe what the Author of grace has told us. Anything else is speculation. "Also do not read into my statement I made no attempt to say God provided another means of salvation outside Jesus Christ" No, but you do seem to be saying that there is a means of receiving the justification purchased by Christ on the Cross other than faith in the gospel. If I am misunderstanding you, please explain exactly how a person can be saved by any other means than trusting in the only name on earth given among men by which we MUST be saved. (Acts 4:12) Where does the Bible even give a glimmer of hope for this? "Joe you asked what the message of Roman 1and 2 was. It is saying people are without excuse for not having faith that God would provide a payment for their sin." That is not the reason given by Romans 1:18-32. 'You questioned my statement, ?"What we do know is God has spoken to us, through the preaching of Jesus therefore we are without excuse." Let me say this way then Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.' Amen. And how will they believe if they have not heard? (Romans 10:14). Now please address the response I made to you that we were without excuse before the name of Jesus ever reached our ears. We are not condemned for rejecting Jesus. Our condemnation originates in our sinful rebellion against God the Father. Adam did not fall by rejecting Jesus, and everyone since Adam rebels against the Father as well, whether we ever hear of Jesus or not. Respectfully, Ed, you criticized another poster yesterday for inventing theology, and yet you give no support whatsoever from the Bible for a salvation without the gospel's proclamation, and fail to address the passages which speak so loudly of God's just condemnation of all people. "So faith comes from HEARING, and hearing through the word of Christ." --Romans 10:17 (ESV) --Joe! |
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8 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | EdB | 64327 | ||
Joe What trait declared Abraham righteous? Was it not faith. Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." What was his faith in? God providing a redeemer. What did David look to? God providing a redeemer. Name a righteous person they were looking for redemption the Messiah. "Joe you asked what the message of Roman 1and 2 was. It is saying people are without excuse for not having faith that God would provide a payment for their sin." That is not the reason given by Romans 1:18-32. But is the reason given in Romans 1:17 ! I have never said nor do I intend to say there is any form of redemption other than Jesus Christ. I did suggest that God in his mercy, grace, love, and justice MAY make known Jesus Christ to others in ways we have no knowledge of. While that seems highly unlikely particularly in the light of scripture Roman 10:14. I do not believe that is completely ruled out. I have heard of testimonies of people seeking and worshipping a redeemer sent by God without knowing his name. That is all I was saying. Now if you know for a fact that does not happens then I stand in awe of you. And there is nothing else to discuss. I believe redemption has been provided for ALL and those that reject Jesus are the ones that are lost. Sin is not the problem the rejection of Christ is now the problem. Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Since your asking me questions let me ask you. Did Abraham being considered righteous by God need a redeemer or not? Did Christ pay the price for sin or not? Did he or did he not free us from the penalty of sin? If this be true then is it sin or our lack of belief in Christ Jesus as our savior that causes us to be condemned? Joe I might add I do not enjoy or appreciate what I read to be accusations. While I know this a very popular form of debate I do not feel it is needed on this forum. I have posted on this forum for over year and I think my postings proven I have a love and appreciation for the scripture, my savior and God the Father. While I openly admit to holding an Arminian point of view it is still considered orthodox I believe. I do not enjoy you accusing me of inventing theology especially when I haven’t. If you go back to my first post on this subject you will see I openly admitted that God’s dealing with those that haven’t heard the scripture is known to me. That I did know Jesus said he was the only way to the Father and beyond that I was in the dark. Now if you want to read things into what others said fine but I would thank you not to do it to me. EdB |
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9 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | Reformer Joe | 64345 | ||
"What trait declared Abraham righteous? Was it not faith. Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." What was his faith in? God providing a redeemer. What did David look to? God providing a redeemer. Name a righteous person they were looking for redemption the Messiah." I am not sure what you are getting at here, Ed. We both agree that Abraham and David were declared righteous on the basis of their faith. But both Abraham and David had that coming redemption revealed to them. They didn't just wake up one morning, look up at creation, and say, "I am a sinner and God is going to provide redemption for me." God specifically revealed himself to Abraham, called him and made a specific promise to him. David was one of God's covenant people, with the Torah which pointed to the Lamb of God which was to take away they sins of the world. Both were directly given the gospel in its OT form. What about the Mayan living in Mesoamerica at the time of Isaiah? Do we have any evidence that the gospel was given to him? That is a completely different story. Is it impossible that God gave the gospel to him? Of course we cannot say it is impossible, but Scripture seems pretty clear that in the Old Testament the oracles of God were given to the nation of Israel (Romans 3:1-2). The woman at the well acknowledged that "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:24). All the OT saints after the giving of the Law were either Israelites or Gentiles who joined the covenant people of Israel. Why would God so clearly show himself to some and make absolutely no mention in the almost 1200 chapters of the Bible to salvation for anyone outside of his covenant people (whether that be OT Israel or the church)? "But is the reason given in Romans 1:17 !" Romans 1:17 does not mention anything about people being "without excuse." Romans 1:17 says that the GOSPEL is the power of salvation for everyone who believes. Romans 1:18-20 explains in no uncertain terms why all men are "without excuse," and the reason given has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ, but rather the clear perception of the eternal power and divine nature of the Father was met with sinful suppression in unrighteousness. This is not rejection of the gospel; this is why we NEED the gospel. We then see the "no excuses card" directed toward the Jews at the beginning of Romans 2, because they commit the same sins the Gentiles outside the covenant do. They are condemned because of their works, not their lack of belief. Nowhere do we see the term "without excuse" linked only to those who have had a gospel presentation. "I have never said nor do I intend to say there is any form of redemption other than Jesus Christ. I did suggest that God in his mercy, grace, love, and justice MAY make known Jesus Christ to others in ways we have no knowledge of. While that seems highly unlikely particularly in the light of scripture Roman 10:14. I do not believe that is completely ruled out. I have heard of testimonies of people seeking and worshipping a redeemer sent by God without knowing his name. That is all I was saying. Now if you know for a fact that does not happens then I stand in awe of you. And there is nothing else to discuss." Come on, Ed. I am not some monstrous "know-it-all" for saying the Scripture gives no hope for salvation outside the direct, outward revelation of Jesus Christ. I do not know for an absolute fact that green elephants do not live on Pluto, either; but I don't think anyone would "stand in awe of me" for declaring that it is my firm, unwavering belief that there are no green elephants on Pluto. And what we are talking about with the gospel is a more extreme case than that. All biblical accounts of salvation are accompanied by a direct, sensory revelation of the gospel by angel, human beings, or the Lord Himself. Even Cornelius was told by an angel to send for Peter so that the gospel would be presented to him orally. Can God save without His word? Sure, but the Bible indicates that He does not. By every account, the Spirit works through the word (1 Thessalonians 1:5; 1 Corinthians 2:1-5). Otherwise, how is one to understand verses like Romans 10:14? The entire force of Paul's argument is deflated if what you say is true. |
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10 | Jesus couldn't of gone up to heaven. | Luke 23:43 | EdB | 64373 | ||
Joe Yes your right, in light of your understanding of what I'm saying your absolutely right. However what I said and what started this discussion was. "I believe this passage is telling us every man is God conscious. Meaning man knows intrinsically that there is a higher power or being, man has a natural desire to worship something. Nature testifies there has to be a God. But that is a long step from there to Jesus. Hence we have various religions like Buddhist, Islam, Hindu and the list goes on. I’m not sure how God deals with those that have never heard of Jesus, but Jesus’ testimony was that no man can come to the father but by Him. Therefore if these others are going to be saved they must be told Jesus is the only way. How and if that is done neither I nor anyone can speak to since we simply don’t know, the Bible is silent on this issue." I think it is clear I'm not inventing or speculating I'm merely responding to Prayon's question and your statement with as much certainty as the Bible allows. Now if you can dogmatically say I’m wrong then I would in fact stand in awe of you for you know more than the Bible has revealed. EdB |
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