Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | Radioman2 | 87046 | ||
Part 2 WHAT DOES THE BIBLE TEACH ABOUT ELECTION? (continued from previous Note) 'Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them. 'But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word "know," in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world. 'If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God. 'The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37). 'In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.' ____________________ For further study: John MacArthur, The Love of God (Dallas: Word, 1996). J. I. Packer, Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1961). (Article by John MacArthur at www.gty.org - listed in Issues and Answers archives.) |
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2 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | Morant61 | 87085 | ||
Greetings Radioman2! My friend, before I ask my question, I want you to know that I respect and love you, so do take my disagreement with this particular position as any kind of slight against you. :-) I firmly believe that this view of election misses out on much of what Scripture has to say about election. In particular, Romans 9-11 teaches that the group of 'elect' is not set in stone. So, allow me to ask this question. If the 'elect' refer to all of those individuals whom God has unconditionally predestined to salvation, how come those who were hardened in Rom. 11:7 are said to be able to be grafted in again in Rom. 11:23? In fact, Rom. 11:11 says that they did not 'stumble so as to fall beyond recovery. If the view of election proposed in your post is correct, then they must have stumbled so as to fall beyond recovery because they were not among the 'elect' in v. 6 who received, but were among those who were hardened. The best view of election that I have read (Robert Shank) says that election is corporate, not individual. Thus, the 'elect' includes all those who believe. This group changes with the passing of time. When the group that was hardened in Rom. 11:6 do repent and believe, they too will become part of the 'elect'. I look forward to your response my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | John Reformed | 87105 | ||
Hi Tim, I hope you won't mind if I add my 2 cents to the topic. :-) Romans 1 states that God did not reject Israel( v1) but rather, "God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew" (v2). The question is whether or not "national" Israel (every single member of the nation), and "His people whom He foreknew" are identical and therefore the "elect". From the verses that follow (3-5) , Paul cites the prophet and distinguishes between the remnant which God kept for Himself and the majority of the nation. These 7,000 are likened to those believing Israelites of Paul's time who are "a remnant according to God's gracious choice". What I believe these first 5 verses teach is that God has not forsaken those whom He foreknew. Those whom He foreknew are those He had elected from within the nation of Israel (before the creation) and not Israel as a whole. This use of the term "foreknew" harmonizes with Pauls use of the word in Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. Time to go to work :-( John |
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4 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | Morant61 | 87108 | ||
Greetings John! Always a pleasure my friend! :-) Overall, I agree with you. I beleive that the spiritual "Israel" is made up of all those from every nation who believes. But, the point of my previous post was that Rom. 11:7 mentions those who were not part of the 'elect' and had been hardened. Yet, later in the chapter, those who had been hardened and cut off are said to be able to be grafted in again. According to your understanding of election, how can those who were not 'elect' be grafted in? Have fun at work! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | John Reformed | 87136 | ||
Hi Tim, Finally a break from the "hum-drum" to take flight in the "astonishing"! Question: According to your understanding of election, how can those who were not 'elect' be grafted in? What does the term elect signify? Eph 1:4,5 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" Based upon the above passage and our knowledge of God's nature, it is impossible that any of the elect to be lost or any of the reprobate to be saved. Therefore I must conclude that Rom 11:15 is an arguement from the less to the greater. "For if their rejections, etc. This passage, which many deem obscure, and some awfully pervert, ought, in my view, to be understood as another argument, derived from a comparison of the less with the greater, according to this import, "Since the rejection of the Jews has availed so much as to occasion the reconciling of the Gentiles, how much more effectual will be their resumption? Will it not be to raise them even from the dead?" For Paul ever insists on this, that the Gentiles have no cause for envy, as though the restoration of the Jews to favor were to render their condition worse. Since then God has wonderfully drawn forth life from death and light from darkness, how much more ought we to hope, he reasons, that the resurrection of a people, as it were, wholly dead, will bring life to the Gentiles. It is no objection what some allege, that reconciliation differs not from resurrection, as we do indeed understand resurrection in the present instance, that is, to be that by which we are translated from the kingdom of death to the kingdom of life, for though the thing is the same, yet there is more force in the expression, and this a sufficient answer." (Calvin's Commentary on Romans). I would appreciate your comments along with other verses that might support the idea that the reprobate may become the elect. God Bless, John |
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6 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | Morant61 | 87156 | ||
Greetings John! I don't mean this in a mean way, but I have no clue what Calvin means in that passage! ;-) I'm getting ready to leave for work myself now, so I'll have to be very bried for now. :-( Rom. 11:7 speaks of two classes of people, the elect (who obtained the promise) and the rest (who were hardened). (This is an interesting word in itself. It is used in John 12:40 and 2 Cor. 3:14, both passages which describes the hardening accomplished by God. Though 2 Cor. 3:14ff also seems to indicate that this hardening is not permanent.) Rom. 11:8 go on to quote the OT about their hardening. So, 'the rest' would include the natural Israelites who did not accept Christ. But, Rom. 11:11 denies that these fell so as to be beyond recovery. Then, the rest of Romans 11 goes on to make the point that they will be grafted in again if they do not continue in their unbelief. So, the 'elect' seems to be a pretty flexiable group according to this passage. Some are added later, some who are a part can be removed (Rom. 11:21). Hopefully, we can pick this up later. Keep me in your prayers. We are getting ready to move in a couple of weeks, and I have just accepted a associate staff position at our local church. So, there are going to be lots of changes over the next few weeks. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | John Reformed | 87163 | ||
Dear Tim, The way I understand it is that we are all born with hard hearts. From the womb we labor under the curse placed upon us through Adam's sin. We are born spiritually dead and have no desire to love or serve God. This tragic state of affairs was true for the nation of Israel just as it was for the gentile nations. Then, one may ask, of what advatage was it to be born an Israelite? Paul answers this question in Ron 3. As far as the gentiles were concerned they did'nt have even the opportunity (even if they wanted to, which they did not) to worship the true God. Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. This is only one reason that I cannot except the doctrine that teaches that we choose God and then become elect. I realize that well meaning preachers promulgated this doctrine because they believed it to be fair and democratic. They were, so to speak, getting God off the hook. That mean old doctrine of unconditional election had to go! But were they successful in this compassioate but (IMHO) wrong-headed teaching? I don't think so. Unbelievers may still throw up accusations against God, using a wide range of arguements. For instance: If God was fair He would give everyone a chance to hear the Gospel; What about all those pagans who died before Christ was born; Why do we have to suffer for something that happened before we were born; etc., etc. To be frank Tim, I find it much easier to answer these questions from the calvinistic position than from the arminian. I am also 100 per cent sure that each person with whom I share the gospel will accept it or reject it based on God's mercy. He has predestined some for mercy, the rest for justice. God Bless, John |
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8 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | Morant61 | 87225 | ||
Greetings John! I still don't how that explains Calvin's postion on Rom. 11? We all agree that we are born depraved. But, Rom. 11 specifically says that those who were hardened, and not of the elect in v. 7, can be grafted in again. How? To be fair, the Bible doesn't explain very much at all about 'election'. The word only occurs a handful of times, and then usually in contexts describing Christians (who are of course 'elect')! :-) So, I don't think that the position I posted was 'made up' simply to make God fair! I firmly believe that God can do what He wants! He is God after all. But, I also believe that Scripture teaches a 'real' universal offer of salvation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | once saved always saved | John 10:28 | John Reformed | 87292 | ||
Hi Tim, If I am elect because of something I did, then I have something of which to boast. But if I am elect because of what God has done for me, I have nothing of which to boast. There is no denying these simple facts! I am either the master of my fate and the captain of my soul, or, I am a mere sinner rescued from the gallows by the gracious mercy of God. I used to be troubled by the idea that the sons of Adam need suffer for the sin of their father. But after much thought and prayer, I realized that not a one of us could have stood this test. We all would have chosen to be like God, and would have been decieved into believing the lie of Satan. Therefore, it is on that basis which all mankind will be rightly judged. God owes us nothing. It is not unfair of God to choose one to recieve mercy and choose another to recieve justice, for all are guilty before Him. Getting back to Romans 11... You asked "But, Rom. 11 specifically says that those who were hardened, and not of the elect in v. 7, can be grafted in again. How? Romans 11 cannot be interpreted to say what you think it says, for the reason that only the elect recieve etenal life. That is why Calvin thought it was an arguement from the lesser to the greater and not a didactic statement on the nature of election. That is why I asked if you have other verses which would shed light on your question. Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; It seems clear to me that election is a function of God's grace and not human decision. John |
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