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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | mark d seyler | 166567 | ||
Hi WOS, I want to assure you that your words reflect the gentle spirit God gave to you. I know that the internet may make it more difficult to see my tongue in my cheek as I write certain things, but it is there. I believe that you are approaching this subject simply to understand it better. That also is my only intent. I do not have much time at the moment to write, and I also want to spend some more time considering what you have written, to give a more thoughful response. There are a couple of points I would like to raise, to the intent of clarifying what we are looking at. When we consider what happens at re-births, here are the options as I see them: 1. God, in an act of His Own will, without regard to our will, saves us. 2. God, in an act of His will, in conjunction with an act of our will, saves us. 3. We, in an act of our own will, receive salvation. Would you agree that this represents the possible alternatives? I think it is obvious that 3 is not right. If 1 is correct, then God suppresses our will, and then our will is made to be submissive to His. Once our will becomes submissive to His, then our old nature is suppressed. If 2 is correct, then it gets a little more complex, as we try to determine in what way our will works together with His will. Do you agree with these things? What I find as I discuss this with you is that I flip back and forth between submission and suppression (which terms, by the way, I find accurate and useful) of the will. This is why I am now attempting to break down what happens at conversion to smaller units. I will write more later, as I have time. I am really enjoying that you wish to discuss this with me! Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | DocTrinsograce | 166576 | ||
Dear Brother Mark and Brother WOS, Those soteriological points are known in theological terms as: Augustinianism (Determinism or Monergism): "1. God, in an act of His Own will, without regard to our will, saves us." Arminianism (Compatibilism): "2. God, in an act of His will, in conjunction with an act of our will, saves us." Pelegianism (Libertarianism): "3. We, in an act of our own will, receive salvation." (The last two fall under the general label of Synergism.) They each attempt to identify the cause in what is called "moral agency" trying to answer the question "How does a man respond to the command of the Gospel?" Pelegianism presumes that man is ignorant. Given the right information (Gospel) he will believe (faith) and be saved, willingly following Christ. Consequently, what man needs is a tutor. Arminianism presumes that man is sick. Given the right medicine (prevenient grace), the right information (Gospel), and he will believe (faith) and be saved, willingly following Christ. Consequently, what man needs is a doctor. Augustinianism presumes that man is dead. Granted life (grace), he will live (regeneration) and believe (gift of faith), and be saved, willingly following Christ. Consequently, what man needs is a miracle of God. Augustinianism does not assert that man's will is suppressed. Man is always free to choose whatever is in his nature to choose. As John Calvin put it so long ago, "The will is not destroyed, but rather repaired by grace." Whereas once we were slaves to sin (John 8:34), we become slaves to righteousness (Romans 6:18), by the redemptive work of God alone. When Brother WOS brought up the phrase "submission and suppression" I thought he was talking about something man does to himself. I missed the point completely if it has to do with something God does to man. We've shifted from the topic of the will of the believer in the context of obedience, to the topic of the role of the will in the context of salvation. Very different topics indeed! If we are going to make headway in the original discussion of moral agency, we'll need to narrow it down to the particular state of man in which we are interested; i.e., created, fallen, redeemed, or gorified. In Him, Doc |
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3 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166598 | ||
Dear Doc, Concerning submission and suppression, I didn’t intend to imply that this is necessarily something we do to ourselves or something God does do man. In the terms relevant to my inquiry, and I’m sure I didn’t lay it out quite as clear as I would have liked to, I was looking for our state of responsiveness at and after regeneration and how the moral agent plays out it’s role to our role, or rather responsibility, in acting upon our will. Probably still not clear in all respects and maybe I can’t properly convey them at this time. If I can’t the best thing may be to take a moment or two to recollect my thoughts and better present them. In any event, I’m looking at this relevant to the redeemed and I did not intend to push it into the context of obedience, at least not yet. I seem to be more interested in our state at, and immediately following, regeneration as part of the salvation process and ultimately imagine that the desire behind obedience will stem from that. WOS |
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4 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | DocTrinsograce | 166607 | ||
Dear Brother WOS, Just so we are still on the same page, you understand that the Gospel is something to be obeyed? (cf 2 Thes 1:9) Consequently, "responsiveness at and after regeneration" is about obedience to God's command. In Him, Doc |
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5 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166692 | ||
Fully understand, Yes. 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. WOS |
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