Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | mark d seyler | 166472 | ||
Dear WOS, My rambling is simply indicative that I am working out what I believe on these points as I write. I will most certainly, and patiently, allow others that same opportunity. Personally, I thought you made some very interesting points, and I find this a fascinating discussion. The reason, I think, that I find this so difficult to both understand and explain is that both God’s will and our will are held in the Bible to be crucial to salvation and sanctification, as you have also pointed out. We are truly taught that we would not be candidates for salvation unless God had originally chosen us, long long before we were born. We are equally taught that God wants all to be saved, has offered salvation to all, and requires that we choose Him. (Now, I understand this does not agree with the TULIP, and I intend to not debate that issue; let this simply show my beliefs on that point.) I will make the same specification as you, that I also am writing solely regarding the regenerate. I praise God that He does not allow us to fully “switch over” to the flesh. No matter what my state of mind, I am never without the consciousness of God’s presence and activity in my life. 2 Cor 5 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. To me, a key point is identification. When we are reborn, we are a newly created being, a “new creation”. We are no longer identified with the person we once were. At least, not by God. We tend to go back on that, both identifying ourselves, and our Christian brothers and sisters with those people we were, and sometimes still act like. This is a very intriguing passage to me in the context of this discussion. As we ponder what we could learn from having known Christ “according to the flesh”, Paul dismisses it out of hand, to say “we know Him thus no longer”. Perhaps that is his way of dismissing the subject? But the point is, God doesn’t, and we aren’t supposed to, identify each other and ourselves with that “old man”, or old nature. We are no longer that person. Heb 12 1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. Here it seems that God comparing our sin and “weights” with the attack of sinners on Jesus. Perhaps we may think of Jesus remaining steadfast to fulfill the will of the Father against the hostility expressed against Him as comparable to our struggle to remain steadfast to fulfill the will of the Father against the hostility of our own old nature? I have long thought of this passage as expressing that we are either moving ahead in the life of the spirit, or standing still because we allow sin in our lives, which stands in our way. This leads me to Eph 2:10, “for we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we would walk in them.” It suddenly occurs to me, how could God’s will expressing itself in us, or to put it another way, our living spirit, created ”in true righteousness and holiness”, ever be actually submitted to the will of the flesh? So with this in mind, I would say that the more we identify with the new creation, and choose to be that that God has created us to be, the more we take on the characteristics of that new creation, and the less we have the characteristics of the old man. All that to say that given to choose between submission of one nature to the other, or suppression of one nature by the other, I would say that the latter describes the state of the believer. Perhaps given a little longer, I will ramble less! :-) But meanwhile, I am interested in anything further you may choose to share. Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166532 | ||
Dear Mark, First of all, my comment on rambling was only in jest and I hope you recognized it as such. I’m glad you have invited me along for the ride as you work out your beliefs on the subject. I find it odd, that I see so many similarities initially concerning our thought processes, but somehow we have reached slightly different conclusions. Where you, if having to choose, lean toward suppression, I would lean toward submissiveness. Just for the sake of clarification, let me state that the terms I applied as originally presented were not intended to push the subject into a psychiatric spin. It was merely my attempt and maybe a poor one, to identify as appropriately as I could, what actually takes place when regeneration is enacted upon us and subsequently our response and progression. As you aptly concluded, God’s will can never be suppressed nor can it be submissive to man’s will. But concerning the regenerate, that appears not even to be an option. Ultimately our will is either suppressed by or submissive to God’s. Once predestined by God, the choice is no longer ours is it? His will progresses while ours, in logically deducing, has to react in some fashion accordingly. We can’t reject, that places us above God’s sovereignty to say that He called us but we choose not come. We can’t accept initially, because up to that point just prior to regeneration, the agent acting upon our will is in fact immoral or we are void of a moral agent. So I see two options remaining, be suppressed by or submissive to the will of God. I see the manner of regeneration happening in an instant and arguably unnoticed at the onset. I see our wills being suppressed by God for an instant to allow our hearts to be renewed, because I don’t believe we would let it happen, given an option. From that moment forward, I see our wills as being submissive to God’s because His Spirit is now the acting moral agent on our heart. Our hearts are acted upon by the only moral agent capable of directing our hearts to effect changes in our desires and motives to coincide with those of God. These new motives direct our thoughts, our minds and lead us into a progression toward Christ. We are now freely able to choose that which God desires while retaining what bit of our old nature that we do. As both you and Doc have stated, our hearts are central, our very essence. From our inner being, one would have to surmise our outer actions are predicated. A heart void of God, or unchanged by God cannot produce moral thoughts and ultimately actions in tune with God’s will and desire. I’ll go as far as to say that it seems to be against our very nature to even freely acknowledge and accept a Savior until God makes it so. So I tend to agree with you concerning suppression, but only at the onset. We then freely submit to God’s will which also enables us to suppress our old nature but not entirely. I did not want to imply in any way that God’s will, or God’s Spirit indwelling the regenerate, could be suppressed by or even submissive to our nature or will. God forbid it and I praise Him that the enacting of His will and our submitting to it is truly a one-way street. It’s a gift of His grace and mercy upon us. In all, I can properly concede to the fact that this is a mystery in which God has not revealed to us for His own reason. However, I feel I have a responsibility to fully explore the Word of God and let His Word inform of that. Until I reach a point of being stagnant on a subject, I feel I need to continue. Currently, concerning this subject, I still feel I’m progressing somewhat to a better understanding. Also please understand, when I originally presented this subject, it was only to further explore it for my own understanding. It is surely not a hang up with me. Thank you Mark for sharing and please continue to do so. WOS |
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3 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | mark d seyler | 166567 | ||
Hi WOS, I want to assure you that your words reflect the gentle spirit God gave to you. I know that the internet may make it more difficult to see my tongue in my cheek as I write certain things, but it is there. I believe that you are approaching this subject simply to understand it better. That also is my only intent. I do not have much time at the moment to write, and I also want to spend some more time considering what you have written, to give a more thoughful response. There are a couple of points I would like to raise, to the intent of clarifying what we are looking at. When we consider what happens at re-births, here are the options as I see them: 1. God, in an act of His Own will, without regard to our will, saves us. 2. God, in an act of His will, in conjunction with an act of our will, saves us. 3. We, in an act of our own will, receive salvation. Would you agree that this represents the possible alternatives? I think it is obvious that 3 is not right. If 1 is correct, then God suppresses our will, and then our will is made to be submissive to His. Once our will becomes submissive to His, then our old nature is suppressed. If 2 is correct, then it gets a little more complex, as we try to determine in what way our will works together with His will. Do you agree with these things? What I find as I discuss this with you is that I flip back and forth between submission and suppression (which terms, by the way, I find accurate and useful) of the will. This is why I am now attempting to break down what happens at conversion to smaller units. I will write more later, as I have time. I am really enjoying that you wish to discuss this with me! Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | DocTrinsograce | 166576 | ||
Dear Brother Mark and Brother WOS, Those soteriological points are known in theological terms as: Augustinianism (Determinism or Monergism): "1. God, in an act of His Own will, without regard to our will, saves us." Arminianism (Compatibilism): "2. God, in an act of His will, in conjunction with an act of our will, saves us." Pelegianism (Libertarianism): "3. We, in an act of our own will, receive salvation." (The last two fall under the general label of Synergism.) They each attempt to identify the cause in what is called "moral agency" trying to answer the question "How does a man respond to the command of the Gospel?" Pelegianism presumes that man is ignorant. Given the right information (Gospel) he will believe (faith) and be saved, willingly following Christ. Consequently, what man needs is a tutor. Arminianism presumes that man is sick. Given the right medicine (prevenient grace), the right information (Gospel), and he will believe (faith) and be saved, willingly following Christ. Consequently, what man needs is a doctor. Augustinianism presumes that man is dead. Granted life (grace), he will live (regeneration) and believe (gift of faith), and be saved, willingly following Christ. Consequently, what man needs is a miracle of God. Augustinianism does not assert that man's will is suppressed. Man is always free to choose whatever is in his nature to choose. As John Calvin put it so long ago, "The will is not destroyed, but rather repaired by grace." Whereas once we were slaves to sin (John 8:34), we become slaves to righteousness (Romans 6:18), by the redemptive work of God alone. When Brother WOS brought up the phrase "submission and suppression" I thought he was talking about something man does to himself. I missed the point completely if it has to do with something God does to man. We've shifted from the topic of the will of the believer in the context of obedience, to the topic of the role of the will in the context of salvation. Very different topics indeed! If we are going to make headway in the original discussion of moral agency, we'll need to narrow it down to the particular state of man in which we are interested; i.e., created, fallen, redeemed, or gorified. In Him, Doc |
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5 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166598 | ||
Dear Doc, Concerning submission and suppression, I didn’t intend to imply that this is necessarily something we do to ourselves or something God does do man. In the terms relevant to my inquiry, and I’m sure I didn’t lay it out quite as clear as I would have liked to, I was looking for our state of responsiveness at and after regeneration and how the moral agent plays out it’s role to our role, or rather responsibility, in acting upon our will. Probably still not clear in all respects and maybe I can’t properly convey them at this time. If I can’t the best thing may be to take a moment or two to recollect my thoughts and better present them. In any event, I’m looking at this relevant to the redeemed and I did not intend to push it into the context of obedience, at least not yet. I seem to be more interested in our state at, and immediately following, regeneration as part of the salvation process and ultimately imagine that the desire behind obedience will stem from that. WOS |
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6 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | DocTrinsograce | 166607 | ||
Dear Brother WOS, Just so we are still on the same page, you understand that the Gospel is something to be obeyed? (cf 2 Thes 1:9) Consequently, "responsiveness at and after regeneration" is about obedience to God's command. In Him, Doc |
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7 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166692 | ||
Fully understand, Yes. 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. WOS |
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