Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 21910 | ||
You don't believe that you're already righteous because of the faith in what Christ did for you on the cross? To say that we are NOT righteous in Christ is a real insult to what He did on the cross for you. It's like telling Him "Jesus, your death kinda failed, you know. I'm not made righteous yet and look, I still have to work on my own (ie be self-righteous)! What kind of death is that, Jesus?" Joe, if you can tell me how, a man like Jesus who was without sin can become sin because of us, I'll tell you how we who are sinful can become righteous because of Him. But you want scripture, so here you go: Romans 1:16-18 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." Notice - by FAITH Romans 3:21-23 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Notice again - by faith Romans 4:4-6 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Wow - faith again!!! Romans 4:12-14 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Faith again! Romans 9:29-31 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; Faith? Romans 9:30-32 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Hmm...law? No faith, no attainment.... 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Because of WHO? We have becomed WHAT? Our WHAT? 2 Corinthians 5:20-22 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. We in Him might become WHAT? I think I'm reading something wrong here - does your bible say the same thing? My, oh my! Galatians 2:20-22 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" HA! An insult to Christ's death indeed if we try to work our righteousness through the law!!! Haven't we got enough scriptures??? You want one more? Okay: Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. I've been made righteous through Christ?!!! How can Paul dare to say that?!! BLASPHEMY! No, Joe - righteousness in Christ is a GIFT. Not something you work for, but something you RECEIVE. Just like salvation. That's GRACE. God sees me righteous IN Christ because Christ IS righteous and I had received Christ by faith. "Positionally", "experientially" are just word-plays - you get no assurance at all that you've been made whole by grace. Don't neutralise the gospel by bringing the law in. There are only 2 ways you can become righteous: a) through the law or b) through faith in Jesus Christ. TWO ways, Joe. Only ONE way works. God looks at your SPIRIT when he looks for righteousness. Not your flesh. Where's your spirit now, Joe? Seated at the right hand of God. How dare your spirit sit there unless it's RIGHTEOUS? No doubt, flesh will always war with spirit. That doesn't take away your righteous standing with God. Our flesh are still corruptible, but it will be made PERFECT when Christ returns! Bless you, brother. |
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2 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Reformer Joe | 22026 | ||
I notice that you did not answer the question I asked: are we righteous just like Christ was in nature and in practice? I do not deny that Christ is our righteousness. I fully embrace that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us by God's grace through faith in Him. I am indeed DECLARED righteous (which is what Paul says in Romans 4...note the word "credited"). I am indeed a regenerated person, being sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit (i.e. being made progressively more righteous in practice). None of the verses you have cited contradicts this. Where have you seen me write once that righteousness is attained from the Law? Please go back and read my postings. You are arguing against a position I don't even hold! By mocking the historic Christian views of positional righteousness vs. practical righteousness (and the tone of your post is nothing but prideful swinging the Bible at a target which is miles away from what I believe), you are again demonstrating the ignorance that American Christians have of their evangelical heritage. Those you are ridiculing are the very Reformers who freed the evangelical church from papal tyranny, along with every major Protestant theologian until the end of the nineteenth century. But your view, which gained popularity in the 20th century, is probably the right one. After all, the first 1900 years of Christian thought probably didn't have the same wisdom that you apparently possess... I will repeat it: saying that we are righteous in practice (that is, sinless, holy, perfect) just like Christ is an insult to the holy, sinless, and perfect Son of God. "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:8-14 Paul sees that the righteousness to be gained from the Law is what is our own, but the righteousness on the basis of faith is Christ's. He also regards himself as not having attained it yet (even though you apparently presume to do so). He realizes that he has been laid hold of by Christ Jesus, and his destiny is sure, but he also presses on to attain it. Paul sees himself as "not perfect," which means that being in God's presence is a positional truth, not a present reality. Take a look at John in Revelation 1 to see how our "righteous" selves react in the presence of the glorified Christ. You are absolutely correct that God sees us as righteous IN CHRIST. We are clothed in a foreign righteousness, that of Christ Jesus. Justification is a legal declaration of righteousness, not the making of us into people righteous in ourselves. One day we will be made perfect and righteous on our own, but we simply must continue to cling to Christ's imputed righteousness for our salvation. Where in Scripture do we find that our own spirits are seated at the right hand of God? "Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. --Colossians 3:1 Christ is seated at the right hand of God, ABOVE. --Joe! P.S. I have already argued this on other threads, so please go back and do a little homework of my actual view before replying. |
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3 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22121 | ||
Hi Joe, First of all, I'm sorry if I had misunderstood you at some points and if I had offended you in any way. Also, if the tone of my post comes across to you as "prideful", it is not intended. The problem with communicating via the Internet or written form is that you lose all facial and audio expressions, and what was excitement to me may come across as prideful to you. In any case, I apologise as it was not meant to be that way. Forgiven, I hope? :o) Ok, let me try to address your agruements without too much excitement this time ;). First of all, am I now correct in understanding that yes, you DO believe we are righteous IN CHRIST and God sees us that way, BUT we are "not yet righteous in our nature and in our practice"? My reply now is going to be based on this understanding, so if you think I'm STILL misunderstanding you, then you'll know what my reply is based on instead. Actually, when I answered you the first time, I had posted it first and THEN realised that I was replying to a 3-month old post ;o). Didn't mean to bring you back into this discussion here again, but well - since you're already back, then we might as well continue :o). Ok - I'll start by answering some of your questions: "Where in Scripture do we find that our own spirits are seated at the right hand of God?" That's found in Eph 2:6 as follows: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,.... He MADE us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. "Made" means it's already happened. So yes, it is CHRIST seated at the right hand of God ABOVE (as you pointed out and which I agree too), but aren’t we as well “IN CHRIST" as you do agree too? So since He's seated there, am I not right to say that we are too, since I'm IN Him seated “together in the heavenly places”? True, we're not PHYSICALLY in Him, so what part of us is it that's IN Him then? Must be our spirit, isn't it? Seated together in Christ. And now, the question which I did not answer previously - the million dollar question ;o) : "are we righteous just like Christ was in nature and in practice? First of all, when God sees/calls us righteous, does He make a distinction as to whether He's calling us righteous in nature like Jesus and / or righteous in spirit like Jesus? I fail to see Him making any distinction? When He says we're righteous, I take His word for it and claim by faith that we ARE righteous full stop. True, our flesh at times doesn't BEHAVE righteous, but we ARE righteous nevertheless. So I would say that we ARE righteous like Christ in EVERY aspect, but we're not BEHAVING perfectly righteous like Him yet because I am still LEARNING HOW to behave righteously, and my body is not helping much in the process because it has not yet been transformed to my glorious body. Me and my present body cannot yet comprehend my new righteous nature and my body is also constantly warring with it. As such, it doesn't always give me the righteous results/practices hoped for. You gave me the passage which Paul wrote about pressing on. My first question is, HOW does he press on? Did he say he uses the law to press on? My second question is, WHAT is he pressing on for? Did he say “righteousness”? You say "Paul sees that the righteousness to be gained from the Law is what is our own" but I don't see that he sees that at all. The only time he mentioned the word "law" in that passage is to say he counts all his losses as rubbish so that he may gain Christ, AND “….may be found in Him, NOT having a righteous of my (his) own derived from the Law, BUT that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith." (It's actually a full stop at the end of that sentence. Either a full stop or a ; or : which means the end of that sentence or point). As mentioned in my previous post, there are TWO ways to righteousness which Paul mentions consistanly in his epistles. The first way is through the law. The second way is through faith in Jesus Christ. In the Philippians 3:8-14 passage, all he did when he mentioned "law" was to once again show these two ways, and the way which HE was found in Jesus was righteousness through faith. So, he goes on to talk about pressing on. Did he give an idea as to WHAT he wants to press on to? Yes, he did. In the NIV version, a new sentence starts at verse 10: (post continued in the following post).... |
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4 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22122 | ||
(post continued from the previous post).... So, he goes on to talk about pressing on. Did he give an idea as to WHAT he wants to press on to? Yes, he did. In the NIV version, a new sentence starts at verse 10: "10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this,..." - that is, he doesn't know Christ enough yet, "...or have already been made perfect,..." - that is, his present body is still not the glorious body which Christ has, since that's the only imperfect "part" left of him still. Then he presses on and presses on to take hold of "Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death," for which Christ took hold of him. And he doesn't consider himself to have taken hold of that total knowledge and that total understanding of Christ yet. In other words, he's still learning. Nothing about "pressing on for righteousness" here at all. Not even anything by law. How can he press on to take hold of this? The only ways I know how is through the word and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. "in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." Which is to say, till the point when he gets his newly resurrected body which agrees with his already righteous nature but which unfortunately, has not been obtained yet, since further down the chapter in verse 20 - 21, he ends with "20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Saviour from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." Paul, not once in Philippians 3, wrote about obtaining/attaining righteousness, since he already said that his righteousness is through faith in Christ, not through law. After stating that, there was no more mention of righteousness or law, but about pressing on to having greater knowledge and understanding of Christ, etc. He said he wanted to know Christ, etc..... so for him to do that, the only way is to "press on". To continue. To push forward and know Christ deeper. How do we LEARN how to BEHAVE righteously (since we ARE already righteous)? Once we receive Christ, the LAW is no longer our "schoolmaster" or "tutor" : Gal 3:23-26 "23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." We don't NEED the law anymore in order to learn since we are NO LONGER under a tutor for every area of our lives ("no longer" sounds very absolute to me). Who do we need? Jesus. And His Spirit works in us, not us in us. Hebrews 13 "20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen." It is HE who works in us and the MEANS is the blood ("through the blood of the everlasting covenant"), NOT the LAW. But, but, but....isn't there SOMETHING we can DO??? We have to have our RESPONSIBILITIES as Christians too, right? Well...yes and no. We can't DO anything to grow the fruits of the Spirit on our own. How do we GROW then? Eat. Just eat. Feed on the Word of God, get to know Him more (like what Paul was pressing on to do) so that His righteous nature (which is also now made OUR righteous nature) will REFLECT on us and His Glory will SHINE on us. And then, give HIM all the glory for it ("to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."). THAT'S our "RESPONSE-ABILITY" - the ablity to respond to His grace. Look back at the cross and respond accordingly. The law DEMANDS that we put in our self-effort, and the Holy Spirit cannot operate once "self" comes into the picture. We frustrate His work. And once we bring the law into the new covenant of grace, even just a little bit, we're trying to put new wine (new covenant) into old wineskin (old covenant) which will cause the old wineskin to burst (due to the expansion of the new wine and the inflexibility of the old wineskin) - when that happens, we lose BOTH the new wine and the use of the old wineskin. Grace becomes ineffective, law becomes diluted from it's original standard. (post continued in the following post).... |
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5 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22123 | ||
(post continued from the previous post).... We have to surrender completely to the Holy Spirit and the more we give in to Him, the more He can work in us, and the more we become like Jesus in practice and the more our new nature reflects HIS nature. Mirror-image. We will manifest the fruits of the Spirit. Cannot be done through the law, can be done through the blood. Holiness / righteousness is not outward, it's inward. Work/law is from outward to inward, holiness / righteousness is inward to outward (from our hearts), and grace establishes our hearts, not law. 2 Thessalonians 2: "16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work." You said: "Take a look at John in Revelation 1 to see how our "righteous" selves react in the presence of the glorified Christ." You mean "fall at His feet as though dead"? I'm sure my present body which is still corruptible cannot yet stand in the holiness of God so yes, I do believe I'll fall. Does that mean I'm not righteous? No, I am righteous - but my body is still not yet transformed to the glorious one. John’s wasn’t. THAT's why he fell, that’s why I'll fall at His feet. But once I get my new body, the only reason I'll fall at His feet will be to worship Him and be in awe of him because my new body will by then be able to stand in His holiness. Finally, as for your statements: "By mocking the historic Christian views of positional righteousness vs. practical righteousness...... . But your view, which gained popularity in the 20th century, is probably the right one. After all, the first 1900 years of Christian thought probably didn't have the same wisdom that you apparently possess..." First of all, that last sentence of yours is not going to have that sarcastic effect you were trying to get on me. Why? Because for MANY years down in history, the church had managed to make people think the world was flat even though the bible does mention about it being a "circle". Who is more reliable regarding truths? The church or the bible? I'll stick to my bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Second of all, I admit that I'm not familiar with what the Reformers did in history, so I'm sure they've done a lot of good things. However, I certainly do not agree with their views of positional righteousness vs. practical righteousness. Just because it's a view rooted deep in history does not mean that it's growing the right tree. The "first 1900 years of Christian thought" is not as important as the thought of the bible - and the view which you don't agree with and "which gained (so-called) popularity in the 20th century," actually agrees consistently to what Paul demonstrated in his letters to the churches. In fact, it agrees consistently with the teachings of Jesus too. Grace can never mix with law, just as water can never mix with oil. Not even a bit of each. If we want true transformation, we have to let God do it. Not only will it then be effortless on our part, but it will also be true and totally "made in Heaven". Philippians 1 "5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." THAT short passage alone, summarises the gist of Philippians 3:8-14 which Paul wrote in detail after what he said in Philippians chapter 1. Would be strange, if he should contradict himself in the same letter. Joe, I know that your views about "working our way to attain righteousness in nature and practice through the law" means well. But once we bring the law in, self comes in too. They both come together. The old covenant is ALL about us doing things for God. In the new covenant, it's ALL about Christ doing things for us. Do we TRY, or do we TRUST? Do we STRIVE, or do we REST? Let's not steal Christ's glory by getting ourselves involved in His work in us. The works of Christ was a "stumbling block" to the people practised in the law (Pharisees) because everything which comes by grace from Christ became "too easy" to attain. Don't let the works of Christ in us be a stumbling block to you - we'll enjoy it more when we allow Him to work instead of making ourselves work our transformation. The devil KNOWS it's that EASY for us, who are children of God, to enjoy our new heritage by trusting and relying TOTALLY on God's grace, and he'll do his best to make us go back under law even though we preach Jesus Christ. The best channel for him to do that, is not through the world, but through the church. But GOD will ensure that His truth (which sets people free TOTALLY) breaks through the lies. (post continued in the following post).... |
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6 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22124 | ||
(post continued from the previous post).... Let us have Heaven Inspired Behaviour instead of Self Attained Behaviour. Let's not put the words and works of God into boxes and label them "positional" or "practical", but let's just give God all the glory He deserves for giving freely us the things we DON'T deserve. Let's be TOTALLY "Made in Heaven" and not half "Made in Heaven". Our ONLY "duty" / "responsibility" under the new covenant is to know more about Jesus, respond to His work on the cross, and PRAISE Him for EVERY good and perfect gift - that includes the gift of our righteousness which cannot be attained totally or in part, but which can only be RECEIVED totally. PERFECT gift. May the Lord's grace be on you :o). Stand fast in your FREEDOM given to you by grace! :o). |
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7 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Reformer Joe | 22153 | ||
"Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God." --1 Peter 2:16 "For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another." --Galatians 5:13 "But prove yourselves DOERS of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." --James 1:22-25 "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." --Romans 6:17-19 You wrote: "Our ONLY "duty" / "responsibility" under the new covenant is to know more about Jesus, respond to His work on the cross, and PRAISE Him for EVERY good and perfect gift - that includes the gift of our righteousness which cannot be attained totally or in part, but which can only be RECEIVED totally. PERFECT gift." God's response: "But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;" --1 Peter 2:9 "Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation." --1 Peter 2:12 "For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men." --1 Peter 2:15 "For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps," --1 Peter 2:21 "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, 'YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.'" --1 Peter 1:14-16 "Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more... For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality... For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification." --1 Thessalonians 4:1,3,7 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." --Matthew 5:17 "Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share," --1 Timothy 6:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." --Ephesians 2:10 etc. --Joe! |
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8 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22225 | ||
I'll reply you point by point so that we "stay in line" here: "Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God." --1 Peter 2:16 "For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another." --Galatians 5:13 Simply put - do not ABUSE grace by thinking that it's a license to sin. We should stand firm in our freedom, not abuse it!!!!! Romans 6 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? *************** "But prove yourselves DOERS of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." --James 1:22-25 First of all, DOERS (you emphasised) of what? The WORD (I'd emphasise that instead). NOT the law. If we simply hear the word (hearers) and not FED/meditate on it (doers), then we'll start to forget who we're supposed to reflect - Christ. THAT'S who the word is - Christ (the word which became flesh). "Perfect law, the law of liberty" or NIV "perfect law that gives freedom". As far as I know, the law, though IS perfect, does NOT give me liberty under the old convenant. It can actually BOUND me because it is conditional. But this PERFECT law, under GRACE, gives me full LIBERTY and I should "abide by it". I don't do the things the law says because I HAVE to, but I do it because I WANT to. That can only happen when I keeping falling in love with Jesus over and over and WANT to behave righteous in order to please Him and am eager to "do" the 'rules' and stay in the boundaries (and hence, I become an "effectual" doer - holy from inside out). Stand firm in your freedom (and don't abuse it)!!!! **************** "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." --Romans 6:17-19 "...you became slaves OF righteousness." meaning I'm bounded to my righteousness (in Christ) and nothing can take that away. As opposed to "slaves OF sin", (not "sins") which I would've remained bounded to if not for Christ rescuing me. "....so now present your members as slaves TO righteousness," meaning BEHAVE righteously, resulting in (true) holiness (inside to out) which can only be produced from grace, not law. Question to ask perhaps is: present our members TO who? We know what we should present them AS, but who do we present them TO? Paul had already answered that in verses 13 of the same chapter: 13 ...but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members AS instruments of righteousness TO God. I should surrender my members to God, not to the law. That is to say "God, I present my body AS a slave to righteousness TO you - do what you will by Your grace." |
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