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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | And what about those who will die before | NT general Archive 1 | Hank | 98221 | ||
Dachande - Perhaps I could, with cogent reason and a measure of justification, say to you what you said to your correspondent, "I'm sorry, you are wrong." I don't believe I'll go that route. It's hardly ever wise to tell a person bluntly that he's wrong, even when evidence can be submitted to prove it. It's far better to submit the evidence and let the other fellow see the error of his ways. It's unconscionable to tell a person he's wrong and fail to prove it. ...... So I have decided to respond to your post with a small series of questions that, it is hoped, will serve to help clarify your thinking and mine on certain of the issues you raised. For convenience I've assigned a number to each question. ..... [1] What is the biblical definition of the word "paradise" and does Scripture make a distinction between paradise and heaven? ...... [2] If "born of water" in John 3:5 speaks of water baptism which is regenerative and salvific, this is antithetical to the teaching of salvation by grace. Therefore, do you think that the possiblity exists that there is at least one other way to exegete this verse? Do any alternate exegeses come to mind which do not contract any other part of Scripture? ....... [3] You cite James 2:17 to show that grace and faith alone are not sufficient for salvation. But Paul in Ephesians 2:8 says they are. Were Paul and James teaching a different gospel, Paul a gospel of grace and James a gospel of works? Or is it possible that your interpretation of James 2:17 may be in error? What may James be saying when this verse is viewed in its full context? ....... Finally, I would like to ask you a specific question about your last paragraph, but I know only enough about it to ask, "What on earth are you talking about?" :-) --Hank | ||||||
2 | And what about those who will die before | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98226 | ||
Who are you agian... Hank... yes Hank... I do not have time to touch on everything you have proposed, which are great questions... But on my referance on James and Paul, the difficulty in reading the Bible is we are almost 2,000 years past from when these books were written... and many of the books were letters written to a certain people who lacked in certain aspects of the Gospel Paul and James never contradict each other... They compliment each other... The problem with the Bible is the Bible was not written as the Bible, thus the writtings in it are their own Books, each dirrected to a certain audience... who each had their own short comings in keeping the commandments... and is lacking of many of the writtings of the Apostles... If anyone has problem with this state, research the Nicean Council, under the direction of Constantine, a standardized set of scripture was compiled and the introduction of Christianity was brought into the Roman Empire to keep the peace... the standardized scripture is the not the Bible as we know it today, it had more books which were taken out, some are familiar with the Cathlic Bible having more scripture, the Apocrypha is another notable set of books which the Nicean Council said to not have enough "Cannan" to be included in their set of scripture... Now back to where I was going... To say Paul taught a gospel of grace would undermine his intent, the same goes for James... but since they both were Apostles of God, they were holy men and were both correct... Paul was correcting Christians who practiced a Works only gospel, and James was correcting a Faith only gospel... And if the teachings of the Apostles are taught with the history of who and why they taught what they did, to who they did... the fullness of the gospel can be brought together and more easily understood Peter also commanded, not suggested, in Acts 10:48, to be baptized in the name of the Lord... Was I nicer? I tried to be :) |
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3 | And what about those who will die before | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 98233 | ||
Greetings Dachande! The view that Paul was addressing one extreme, while Peter was addressing the opposite extreme simply doesn't work because their statements would still be contradictory under your intepretation. There is a much simpler answer. We simply need to look at the actual context of James 2. Here is part of what I have previously posted about James 2: ************************************ James isn't teaching that works save, but that those who are saved will work. In fact, James 2:1-13 makes it clear that the 'works' being referred to concern the way we treat others. In this light, James says, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" - James 2:14. To the objector in v. 18, James says, "....Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." Because, "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." - James 2:17. Thus, the context is clearly speaking to those who claim to have faith, but do live it. James is simply saying to them that they don't really have faith because faith works. Which is fully in accord with Eph. 2:10. There Paul, says that once a person is saved that they will produce good works. Verse 24, simply says that faith which works is proven true. ************************************ The key to James 2 is found in v. 14. James is not saying that more than faith is needed for salvation. He is saying that 'those who claim' to have faith, but do not live it - do not really have faith. Thus, there is no conflict with Paul's teachings. Eph. 2:8-10 is quite clear about the relationship between faith, salvation, and works. We believe and are saved apart from works (vv. 8-9)... because we have been saved, we do good works (v. 10). Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | And what about those who will die before | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98241 | ||
Oh wonderful, I just lost everything I wrote... I hate it when web browsers do that... Anyway... Hello again... I'll sum up what got erased... I believe we are trying to convince each other of 2 different understandings of the word WORKS... Yes, salvation comes from the atoning blood of Jesus Christ and through faith in him... But if we do not exercise our Faith what will happen to it? Christ likened faith to a mustard seed, that if we water it, it will grow... But also if we do not water our seed, will it not shrink and die away? We must exercise our faith for it to maintain it and to grow it... We exercise our faith through our works... our obedience to the commandments, etc... So Tim, I'm going to quote you "'those who claim' to have faith, but do not live it - do not really have faith" Is absolutly correct, and is near to what I am saying, except that some people loose their faith because they do not exercise it It would make Faith, Grace, and Works all equally important... for works magnify our faith, and Grace is magnified by our faith... The Jews were scorned for holding on to the Law of Moses, they thought that obedience to the Law of Moses was enough... hence by their "Works" they are saved... which was false I'm not saying that by baptism we are saved, or by professing of the mouth we are saved... alone... And Tim, in Eph 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast." This is a very historically verse, the pharisee's did many outwardly acts of righteousness, and were braggards to their self proclaimed righteousness... Which is why we were discussing 2 different meanings... Paul condemed the outwardly acts like the pharisee's, and James incouraged exercising faith... I believe this confusion is the basis for these way too indepth discussion of a simple topic... I hope this will more or less end this thread, 'least with my involvement... I would like to get onto other topics in the near future... Tim, you presented a well case and your explination I believe helped me realize a plainer way to express myself, thank you Joe |
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5 | And what about those who will die before | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 98244 | ||
Greetings Joe! Joe is much easier than Dachande! :-) I too have lost many posts. :-( The new rule I follow is, for any long posts I compose, use a word processor and save them! I appreciate the response, and I think you are mostly correct in your summary. If by works, one is referring to the things we do because we are saved, I would agree that those kinds of 'works' are expected of Christians. If by works, one is referring to things we do to get saved, I would disagree with that definition. One distinction that I would be careful to make though is that Christians do not 'lose' their salvation by failure to do 'works' anymore than they gain salvation by doing 'works'. I do believe that salvation can be rejected (see my many previous posts on this point), but I do not believe that salvation can be lost because of a failure to 'do' things on our part. Other than that, I would agree with your position as stated in your response. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | And what about those who will die before | NT general Archive 1 | Dachande | 98247 | ||
Heh heh, why thank you Tim! I've been up all night and I believe I got my second wake when it clicked, I seemed to offend Hank by accident but I do have to remember when I talk to people to break down what I want to say... I'm in the military and used to being very blunt, so it occasionally gets in the way ;( I gotta get ready to leave, but I'd say you're an easy guy to talk to Tim Joe |
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7 | And what about those who will die before | NT general Archive 1 | flinkywood | 98321 | ||
Joe, James 2:18 "But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (NASB) I don't believe because I work, I work because I believe. Read the book of Romans. Colin |
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