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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Why this is not taught? | 1 John 3:9 | mark d seyler | 145041 | ||
Hi Tim, It's good to hear from you. You always challenge me toward growth and learning! Romans 7 seems to very clearly portray 2 natures residing together. If I remember correctly you understand Romans 7 to be speaking of the unregenerate person. Is that right? :-) But that aside, what do you think is meant in Colossians 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:" What are our members that are on the earth that we are told to mortify - kill - and why do they need to die? Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Why this is not taught? | 1 John 3:9 | Morant61 | 145043 | ||
Greetings Mark! Great topic by the way! :-) Just to clarify, I believe that Romans 7 refers to an unregenerate Jew, who wants to please God but can't! :-) Now, on to Col. 3:5. This verse doesn't use the word for 'nature'; rather it uses a word for 'body parts or members'. As I looked up how Paul used this same word in other his other books, it became clear that the 'members' can be offered to either righteous or unrighteous, but they themselves are not evil. Here are some of the other verses: 1) Rom. 6:13 - "Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness." 2) Rom. 6:19 - " I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." 3) Rom. 7:5 - "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death." 4) Rom. 7:23 - "but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members." So, with the possible exception of Rom. 7:23 (depending upon your view of Rom. 7), Paul uses 'members' here as a neutural that can be given to either righteousness or unrighteousness. However, in Col. 3:5, Paul does not seem to be using the word to refer to 'body parts'. Rather, the 'members of the earth' that he mentions seem to be the actual list of vice that follows. So, 'fornication', 'uncleaniness', ect.. appear to be the things that are to be put to death. In fact, the reason that they can put these things to death is because of their new nature. Col. 3:9-10 says, "Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator." So, I would say that Col. 3:5 doesn't hint at the presence of two natures in a Christian. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Why this is not taught? | 1 John 3:9 | mark d seyler | 145062 | ||
Hi Tim, I went back and read through Romans 7 and 8 on my lunch break. I can see how 7 could be understood as from the Jew who delights in the Law of the LORD, but is not able to keep it. But then Paul says (Romans 7:24-25) "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." He speaks as of a dichotomy - one part of him serving God, one part of him serving sin. And this is after the deliverance through Jesus, but before the "adoption, the redemption of our bodies" (8:23) That takes me back to 7:20 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Who is the me, that is not me, that sins, if I am an unregenerate man? Back to Col 3:5 Many places Paul speaks of our body parts neutrally, to be either offered to sin or offered to God. Here, he definately takes a different tack. Paul says "mortify your members which are upon the earth (I read "upon", rather than "of" the earth)" 'upon' signifying location of these members - upon the earth. This is the part of me that is still upon the earth, and it is fallen, and it is sinful. I agree with you, Paul does identify these members as the stated sins. But earlier Paul wrote "for you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God". So in this context, I am hid with Christ in God, in heaven, and I have members on the earth to be put to death, because I am dead! "In fact, the reason that they can put these things to death is because of their new nature." - thank God for that!! And then there is still 1 John 3:9, which says that being born of God, we do not "poieo" "commit a single act of" sin. If I understand my old nature to be completely purged and gone, and no more ever to be seen or heard from again, then I have a difficulty with being able to read this as it is written, and other verses like it. 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I mean let's face it - I continue to sin! Not only that, I tend to commit the sames sins as I have been committing. :-( So I see what you are saying, and that the old man is dead. But he seems to be tied to me still, as the albatross to the mariner, and looking at it this way removes the difficulty of otherwise difficult passages. Ultimately, we shall be free from the slightest hint of sin and unrighteousness, and however it is to come - let it come!!! God bless you brother! Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | Why this is not taught? | 1 John 3:9 | Morant61 | 145066 | ||
Greetings Mark! There is a lot to touch upon with this issue! :-) Allow me to make a few short (hopefully) comments! 1) Romans 7: I take a little different approach to Romans 7. I see it as describing Paul's attempts (as a Pharisee) to obey the Law, but being unable to do so. I see the beginning of v. 25 as an unsuppressable praise bubbling to the surface. But, the end of v. 25 provides a summary of what Paul has been describing. His mind serves the Law, but his body can't! However, in Romans 8 (sometimes chapter divisions occur in bad places) describes a change that takes place in Christ. He who is in Christ can live in obedience to the Law. Chapter 8 fits perfectly with chapter 6. The 'old man' is dead and we are no longer slaves to sin, something which Paul said he still was in chapter 7 (excellent proof that chapters 7 and 6 can't both be talking about a Christian). But, chapter 6 also makes it clear that one who is no longer a slave to sin can still choose to sin. This is where sin comes from in a believer's life - an active and willful decision to sin. 2) 1 John 3:9: While there are many different views on this verse, I still believe the best is that it refers to habitual sin, not an act of sin. Normally, a writer would use the aorist tense if he wanted to say that we could not even commit an act of sin. Well, I need to get to bed! I have certainly enjoyed the discussion my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Why this is not taught? | 1 John 3:9 | mark d seyler | 145101 | ||
Hi Tim, Thank you for your input on this subject. As you usually do, you've given me some things to think about. In reading over this material again last night, this passage struck me in particular: Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. To me this speaks to the bottom line of this issue. Before Christ, we were servants of sin. Even if we did what as right it was not regarded by God, in His holiness. Now, we are servants of righteousness. Even if we do what is wrong, it is not regarded by God, in His forgiveness. "Yeild your members servants to righteousness." The choice, and responsibility remains ours. Blessings! Love in Christ, Mark |
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