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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Val | 207669 | ||
Dear Pastor Tim, Beginning in Hebrews 5:11 - 6:12 I mark the group of people called the recepients in orange. They are referred to as "you, us, brethren". Other groups of people are marked in their own colors. But is a word of contrast. I mark it in a different color. Therefore is a word of conclusion I mark it in a different color. Let us and better are other key words I mark in a different color. This is some of what is included in an "observation worksheet". Now concerning your question about Verse 11 - I marked "you" in orange. The word "those" is not in verse 11. I would have to go back and study John inductively to comment on that cross reference but a question does arise, do you feel the John passage you quoted shows "a turning away"? Could you tell me what you believe the verses in Hebrews 6:7-8 mean? Do I understand you the "partakers of the Holy Spirit" is the phrase that you base your view on or are there other passages in the bible that support your view? So the phrase "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" - your view is they repented. I see but did they? That is the question. Doesn't that make your view even more difficult? Because if you can turn away isn't that saying you can't come back? How do you explain that perspective? In verse 9 it starts with a contrast (the word but) of "those" who will be burned and "you" who show love... The "those" in verse 12 are explained as "those who through faith and patience inherit the promise". So this is a different "those" than the those who will be burned up because of the description. Blessings, Val |
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2 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Morant61 | 207734 | ||
Greetings Val! Thanks for waiting for my response. :-) Some of your questions concerning my perspective may be answered if I take a step back for a moment and address the big picture. My understanding of the audience of Hebrews is that they are a group of people (probably primarily Jewish) under a considerable amount of pressure and stress. They had grown to a point (see Heb. 5), but were having trouble advancing beyond that point (see Heb. 6). The author's fear was that they may not persevere to the end (6:11-12). Some have even argued that they may have been in danger of turning back to Judaism. So, Heb. 6:1-12 is all of the following: an appeal to grow up, a warning not to fall away, and an encouragement to persevere to the end. The particular passage in question (6:4-8) deals with a hypothetical group of people who have turned their backs upon Christ, and the consequences of their decision. The author is not saying that his audience has done this. He is only saying that this is what could happen, followed by an affirmation (vv. 9-10) that he anticipated better from them, and an encouragement (vv. 11-12) to persevere to the end. Now, with that in mind, allow me to address your questions. 1) First of all, I don't recall asking a question about v. 11. :-) I was trying to illustrate that vv. 7-8 don't 'prove' that the individuals in vv. 4-6 were not in fact Christian. Rather, vv. 7-8 could be describing Christians who did not follow the author's admonition to persevere in v. 11. 2) What does Heb. 6:7-8 mean? Simple, the author is telling his audience that God wants them to be fruitful, and if they are not, they could be cut off and burned. This is why I appealed to John 15:2-6. One poster, I believe it was our friend Hoppy, made the argument that the individuals described in vv. 7-8 were not fruitful, therefore they could not have been Christians (I am paraphrasing). John 15:2-6 illustrates that this is not unnecessarily true, because there are some who are described as being 'in Him' who are not fruitful. 3) Did they repent? Heb. 6:6 says of them, "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance." If I say, "It is impossible for me to again hit a home run," doesn't it necessarily follow that I must have hit a home run to begin with? :-) If they cannot be 'renewed again to repentance', doesn't it necessarily follow that they must have repented one before? 4) Can they come back, if they fall away? For a much more detailed discussion, see posts 17781 and 25332. But, my shorter answer is that 'they are crucifying afresh' and 'they are exposing Him to public disgrace' are both present participles. As such, they can be translated two ways. They could be translated as causual (since), providing two reasons for it being impossible to restore them to repentance. Or, they could be translated as temporal (while), thus providing two condition 'during which' they cannot be restored to repentance. If the latter is true, then the impossibility is not permanent. It is only impossible while they are doing these two things. 5) The contrast of v. 9. Yes, there is a contrast. Verses 4-8 describe what could happen, while verses 9-12 describe what the author expects and encourages to happen. The people described in vv. 9 and 10, could become the people described in vv. 4-8, if they do not follow the author's admonition in vv. 11-12. :-) Whew! I hope I have fairly addressed your questions my friend. The only thing I would add to this discussion is that in one of your previous posts you mentioned that it would cost me to change my view. I hope you don't believe that I am 'simply clinging' to a view. The understanding that I have laid out for you is my sincere and considered understanding of this passage. The words of Albert Barnes, regarding this passage, describe my true experience: "Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians." If we differ on our understanding, that is fine. But, please do not think that I would be so unethical as to twist the meaning of this passage in order to avoid paying a cost. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Val | 207744 | ||
Dear Tim, I apologize I did not mean to imply you are unethical. What I meant is that all of us are colored by that which we were taught as a child, teenager from others. Usually, however a person grows up, they remain that way as an adult in most cases. I am talking about denominations. So not only you but me, and I believe others are influenced by how our parents, loved ones, taught us. My point was that you and I and others must be objective when we approach scripture. We all have presuppositions that cause us to lean in one direction or another. I believe it takes an objective in-depth study as I have pointed out in other posts, as well as, a consideration of those who have studied before us and those in this age that devote their lives to the study of the bible; all this is available to us at this time. I am thankful to the Lord to be living in a day of so much grace. Now I will get back to the joy of studying His word. I am afraid I spend too much time on here. Please take no offense. I apologize if I came across that way. Many blessings; Val |
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4 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Morant61 | 207754 | ||
Greetings Val! I am glad that you did not think me guilty of such an offense. :-) Not that it makes me right, but almost no influences, except for Scripture, in my Christian thinking until I was much older. I was raised in a non-Christian home, and had very little guidance, until I was in my teen years. By that time, I was already preaching street revivals. When I finally went to college, I didn't really have any change of views. I simply learned what the views were actually called. :-) Keep up the excellent studies my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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