Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | DocTrinsograce | 207631 | ||
Hi, Pastor... Fundamental to the doctrine of sola Scriptura is something called "the analogy of faith." The old divines put it this way: "The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16)" --1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (chapter 1, paragraph 9) Baptists, historically, have always taken the position that salvation is rooted in the decrees of God, not the vagaries of human whim. "Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence He still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet He is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of His hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity. (John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6) "This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. (Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40) "And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end. (Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62)" --1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (chapter 17) Even modern Baptists hold this view: "In [Hebrews 6], the writer of Hebrews is speaking to the unsaved who have heard the truth and acknowledged it, but who have hesitated to embrace Christ. The Holy Spirit warns them, 'You had better come to Christ now, for if you fall away it will be impossible for you to come again to the point of repentance.' They were at the best point for repentance -- full knowledge. To fall back from that would be fatal. "Because they believe the warning is addressed to Christians, many interpreters hold that the passage teaches that salvation can be lost. If this interpretation were true, however, the passage would also teach that, once lost, salvation could never be regained. There would be no going back and forth, in and out of grace. But Christians are not being addressed, and it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost. "The believer need never fear he will lose his salvation. He cannot. The Bible is absolutely clear about that. Jesus said, 'My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand' (John 10:27-29; see also Romans 8:35-39; Philippians 1:6; and 1 Peter 1:4-5)." --John MacArthur In Him, Doc |
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2 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Beja | 207638 | ||
I agree with basically everything you said theologically, I'm not sure this passage is to that point of uncertainty however where we can't simply determine what he said from context. I think part of the confusion from this whole thread is that people assumed since I was asking how to understand this passage that I didn't believe these things. When in reality I was simply trying to understand exactly what the author intended within this frame work. And as a result people, rather than explaining the verse, began to argue once saved alway saved thinking, which was rather waisted, because I never doubted that. However, with regards to the passage at the moment I disagree. I do think its talking about saved individuals. But I do not think its talking about them loosing their salvation. Part of the reason I think this is because I consider it not to be very clearly translated. If you will note that your NASB in fact gives an alternative meaning in one point that it could be WHILE they crucify, rather than SINCE. I think while would be correct along with some clearer meanings of some of the participles involved. Morant61 posted some numbers that you can look up. Numbers in which he very clearly explains my thoughts on the passage, I would highly encourage you to look those up, its a bit more than I ought to repost. The understanding of the passage which he posts is completely compatable with the theological statements which you've made (perseverance of the saints, irresistable grace, etc.) However, while it may not seem it at first glance from this thread, I truely do hold this interpretation of this passage very lightly. And I am willing to change my stance should the evidence grammatical, syntactical, from literary context or otherwise truely merit it. But with what has been discussed so far, and in my own studies, I simply can not -yet- accept that the author is not referring to saved individuals. If the passage could not be understood on its on and within its context to have a clear meaning that does not violate these doctrines we hold dear, then perhaps I would lean more on the evidence people are suggesting. But while I do believe it might have an alternative explination that satisfactoraly explains it, and avoids clashing with clearly revealed doctrine, and fits the context then I think there is no merit in trying to say that the author is not talking about the saved when he says these things and he says moving them "again" to repentence. Read those links and tell me what you think, I very much would love to hear your thoughts on what they present. |
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3 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | DocTrinsograce | 207647 | ||
Hi, pastor... Thank you for your response to my posting regarding Dr. John MacArthur's answer to your question of Hebrews 6. You asked what I think. I'm nobody, really. Yet I'll try to be as forthright as I am able: Some things are so clearly stated in so many passages, and are so lucidly, strenuously, consistently, and frequently taught by so many of the diverse theologians, teachers, and pastors of so many centuries of so much church history, it just doesn't yield much in the way of spiritual fruit to deliberate them. Christ's provision and promise to the church in Ephesians 4:8-16 continues to work itself out among His own. The human heart, being what it is, tends to have a vested interest in specific presuppositions. Consequently, the same arguments tend to surface over and over again, using the very few passages that appear to support those predispositions. While we are ferreting out theological minutia from passages like Hebrews 6, we entirely sidestep the incredibly stern and fearful warning of putting our hand to the plow and looking back. WE are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b), for it is GOD who is working in us (Philippians 2:13). The Bible doesn't apologize for the tension between two such verses. Why should I? Clearly the point is for us to strive, understanding the consequences of being someone who doesn't strive, for it is the Lord God almighty who is doing all this stuff! We recently had a huge discussion that entirely focused on whether women should wear hats or not based on 1 Corinthians 11:4. Yes, it is easier to discuss the practice of gender dependent hat wearing than it is to deal with the whole question of submission in chapter 11. However, I seriously doubt that our efforts to normalize head covering in the church will make the slightest bit of difference in eternity. On the other hand, I am quite certain that the question of appropriate submission of church members WILL make a significant difference. The good news is that the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture is such that there are a great many other passages on which to build solid doctrinal foundations. The study of those passages yield far more Godly fruit. For whatever they are worth, those are my thoughts. I am honored by your tolerance and indulgence in even asking for them. In Him, Doc |
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4 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | bowler | 207726 | ||
Doc I read a lot through the hats issue, but if you have it could you please provide a branch number for this issue of hats as "Yes, it is easier to discuss the practice of gender dependent hat wearing than it is to deal with the whole question of submission in chapter 11". I read a lot about hats before posting beja with an intention to reply to him for the first time on his issue here. I could not seem to find a discussion centering on what you mention here. Could you help me out?:-) John 14:16 I will ask the Father, and He will give another Helper, that He may be with you forever. blessings abound, bowler |
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5 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | DocTrinsograce | 207739 | ||
Posts 203948, 203952, and 203955. | ||||||
6 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Val | 207742 | ||
Doc, thank you for your thoughts. Many blessings, Val | ||||||