Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | azurelaw | 207566 | ||
Dear beja, A belated welcome to the forum. Let me try to give my 2 cents. I believe Heb 6:7-8 explains what the author (Paul?) meant in terms of tasting the heavenly gift. Then how should we interpret "part takers of the Holy Spirit" in verse 4. Does it necessary mean true believers? Meanwhile, shall we also consider the parable of sowing seeds in Matthew 13:20-22 being understood in parallel to the passage you cited? Your thoughts? Shalom Azure |
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2 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Beja | 207590 | ||
Azure, since I feel your post seems to be the one that best grasped the question I'm replying to this one, but some comments will be meant to reply to other posts so please don't feel I'm putting words in your mouth, rather I'm really replying to the entire thread. First, lets lay out more clearly what exactly the problem is. Hebrews 6:4-6 describes a person who is described as this: 1. Once been enlightened 2. have tasated of the heavenly gift 3. have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit 4 have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. 5. And then have fallen away Now, lets be open and honest and say that in any other context than what he says about these people following, we would all assume 1-4 describes a saved person. In fact, it seems a very strong description of a saved person. Perhaps it does not, and perhaps that is the answer, but if we are going to argue that we have an uphill battle. If anybody wishes to argue this the burden of proof is on them to really truely explain how you can possibly understand this to mean something other than somebody who has been saved. The problem developes in that it says they have fallen away, and it is impossible to renew them again to repentence. This appears to be saying they are now lost. Perhaps it does not. But we should be honest and admit that at first blush, that is how an honest person would see that description. The problem of the passage develops further when it apparently explains why they can not be renewed again to repentence. Since they again crucify again to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. This appears that it is saying that the reason that they can not be moved to repentence is that it would require another sacrifice of Christ which obviously isn't coming. Now, lets recap. What this passage appears to be saying upon a very basic glance over is the following. 1. A save person is being discussed. 2. In the IF scenerio they fall away 3. They can no longer be made to repent 4. Another death of Christ would be needed for them to do so. Now, for somebody like myself whoes does NOT believe you can loose your salvation. This is a problem verse. Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that this is how the verse must be understood. Quite the contrary, I intend for us to debunk that understanding of it. However, it will not help me, nor any other Christian who struggles with this verse for us to pretend it does not at first glance say the above. So, we must admit what it appears to say, then through showing what it actually was meaning to convey, give an alternative understanding of the verse. Now, in response to your post Azure. I think your repsonse merits some thought. There is certainly in scripture the idea of a person becoming very nearly a Christian, very much involved in Christianity and then falling away because they never truely were converted. I take the passage you refered to as a primary example of this. But ofcourse the question becomes, is the description in Heb 6:4-6, particularly meaining a partaker of the Holy Spirit too strong to be refering to somebody who wasn't actually saved and indwelt of the Holy Spirit? I'll certainly think about it. I'm leaning at the moment to this person described being saved but clearly I'm open to thoughts on it. |
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3 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Val | 207599 | ||
We are always to consider the obvious passages of the bible to understand the obscure passages. We know from other passages the language concerning saved persons is different. It would say this person has been justified or some other description that would be positive evidence of salvation. Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, We do not find that positive description here. Again look at the history of what was going on at the time. People were being killed for their faith. Nero was trying to blame the christians so he could burn Rome. He even used them as torches. Would this not shake the church? But instead of stamping them out it made christianity stronger. Hebrews is a word of exhortation. An encouragement to hold on. The way to do that and is pointed out in Hebrews is to keep your focus on Jesus Christ, our High Priest who can and will help us. We must look at the entire message of Hebrews and the authors purpose. |
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4 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Beja | 207605 | ||
First, your arguement about the context is ill founded for a few reasons. First, Hebrews is one of the most contested books in the NT with regards to who wrote it since even it does not make any claim. It seems it was written to Jewish Christians before the destruction of the temple in 70AD. So to argue that pursecution of Christians in Rome was the driving mentality is highly unlikely. Much more likely any persecution ideas was from the unbelieving Jews. But even if you were correct, the arguement that Hebrews is meant to be an exhortation to Christians in times of trouble does nothing to answer the question being put forward. Now in your mind you may be thinking of how it applies, but you aren't saying it clearly if that is the case. I'm not struggling with the meaning of Hebrews. I'm trying to simply see what others understand to be specifically talking about in this one passage. You are only barely touching upon that question, and when you do so it is in a passing way by which I mean, you are simply casually giving your opinion of what it is -not- meaning without really defending it. If you are certain this passage is not talking about somebody who is saved, then it is important that you forward a clear alternative understanding of this particular passage. What kind of person is Paul specifically referring to when he says those who, "have once been englightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit?" Particularly the reference to partakers of the Holy Spirit needs to be explained. And if you propose the answer is a Christian who is simply scared off by persecutions then why is it they can not be renewed to repentence? Do we become permenantly judged when a saved person falls away because of persecution? Or if your repsonse is that this person was never saved and the persecutions showed them to not be saved via their falling away, then why again can they not be brought to repentence later? Your answer deals with none of these issues. Explain what is being said in this particular passage by these particular words rather than saying in passing what is not being said by it. I pray that this post gives no offense, I am a preacher that is use to having a great many other non verbal tools to clarify good will and compassion as I speak and I find that these forums rob me of a good many of them. | ||||||
5 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Val | 207619 | ||
Dear Sir, I am in an in-depth bible study on Hebrews as we speak. Let me ask you a question. Does your christian journey ever get hard in the sense that people make fun of you for your belief in Christ Jesus as the only way. Have you ever been put in prison for your beliefs? Have you ever been beaten for your beliefs? Have your possessions ever been taken for your beliefs? Has your family ever disowned you for your beliefs? The book of Hebrews is an exhortation. The reason the book was written is found in Chapter 13:22. As I have said before people were going back under the law. Hebrews shows them (us, everyone, saved or unsaved) that that is not a good idea. He then goes on to teach us why not. If you do a word study on priest, high priest, you will see the contrast of men who were priests and why Jesus, our High priest is much better. One thing we can agree on is they are suffering. Many people have tried to help you understand but it has not satisfied you. May I suggest the only thing that will satisfy you is for you to do your own in-depth study of the book of Hebrews and the Holy Spirit may answer this one question you have. Precept.org has an indepth study. The facts I gave you were from a teacher who has spent hundreds of hours studying this book. Let us agree to disagree. Rome always persecuted christians sir. Did they not put our Lord to death? What about the apostles? Weren't they afraid of Rome? What about Paul? Didn't the Roman soldiers beat him one time? Couldn't they just take people's property as they pleased? The historical context is one of suffering. Hadn't Timothy been released from prison? As to your specific passage, I told you this sounds like christians but if you look in other books of the bible, when they talk about christians they use different language like justified to describe them. Partakers of the Holy Spirit. We know the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. Some one in another post explained how someone could enjoy the benefits of the Holy Spirit at a church service but not have a genuine faith. It talks in the book of Hebrews about those who do not enter Christ's rest those under Moses who wandered in the wilderness. It says they had hardened their hearts. They did not enter because of unbelief. It talks in Hebrews about "the shaking". The evidence of a christian is that they continue in the faith. The ones who can't take it cause the journey gets too tough they drop out. Were they christians? No they did not continue in the faith. When the shaking started they fell off. They did not have a genuine faith. The point I believe and the teaching I believe is that the author is telling the genuine Hebrew christians that it would be inappropriate to go back to the law, the old covenant. Why because of who Jesus is, what He did and where He is now. So my thought is He is telling them what we have in Christ and the message falls on the saved and unsaved. The saved will continue on in the faith. Those that professed Christ but did not have a genuine faith will fall off when the shaking starts. The life lesson is what Christ has done for us. He is our High Priest. Look no further. He is the way, the truth, the life. I think at this point in my study of Hebrews and I am on Chapter Four by the way, that the application is made by the individual. If I am saved and I go back under the law, which by the way, some churches today, do that, the author is saying in essence thats not appropriate. If I am not saved, I can be saved if I put my faith and trust in Christ. When the shaking starts, I look to Christ, my High Priest, to help me. You speak as if suffering is a slight thing. It is not. Christians need encouragement. It is said that there are more martyrs for Christ today than in the history of the church by Barna Research. Persecution is enough to discourage and cause many to go backwards instead of forwards. I personally and I hope you are not offended believe you have to look at the whole book to understand it and those verses have to be understood in the context of what is being taught in Hebrews; the contrast of the better covenant to understand these verses you have pointed out. I think your zeroing in on them too much and doing it that way does cause too many problems. Blessing - Val |
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6 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Beja | 207623 | ||
You seem to think I am arguing against Hebrews as an exhortation. I am not. I can now understand your entire view on the verse up until one point. What do you believe he said a non-legit christian who falls away at persecution can not later be brought to repentence? If you stated in this post I apologize, I got everything but that. | ||||||
7 | Heb6:4-6 Loosing salvation or what? | Heb 6:4 | Val | 207625 | ||
Well I would turn to that scripture that says God's spirit does not always strive with men. There is a time that the call comes and if we miss the call, we miss the call. I will let you know after I have completed my study of Hebrews. I have twelve in depth lessons to go. It takes a week to do one lesson if I am diligent. Blessings, Val |
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