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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Predestination question? | 1 Tim 2:4 | Morant61 | 85034 | ||
Greetings Joe! It is good to hear from you my friend! Allow me to make two quick points in response to your post. 1) First of all, the parallel is in the text, so it must be seen! ;-) All of our theological conclusions must come from the actual text first and foremost. What does v. 18 say and how is the parallel formed? "As one transgression resulted in condemnation to all men even so one act of righteousness resulted in justification of life to all men." It would make absolutely no sense to say that the first 'all men' means 'each and every individual' but the second 'all men' means only some men. 2) The result of the atonement: Now, does this parallel mean that everyone is saved. According to v. 17, the answer is 'No!'. Only those who receive God's grace reign in life. There are two aspects to this discussion. The first is the objective act of Christ which brought justification whether anyone receives it or not. The second is our response to God's grace. So, here is where I would see your objection differently. The atonement is not just potential. It is an actual, objective fact. Our sins are not atoned for at the moment each of us prays for forgiveness. They were all forgiven on the cross. Even, the sins of the world, as 1 John 2:2 puts it. But, the gift of God must also be received. This is how I distinguish between v. 17 and v. 18, yet keep the parallel which is contained in v. 18. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Predestination question? | 1 Tim 2:4 | Reformer Joe | 85094 | ||
Hey, Tim. Been busy with my twin baby girls, so my posting time is somewhat limited these days. You wrote: "It would make absolutely no sense to say that the first 'all men' means 'each and every individual' but the second 'all men' means only some men." If this verse were taken in isolation, I would agree. What I see is the following: In verse 15, "the many" is used in both places but clearly refer to different groups. In the first case, "the many" refers to those who have Adam as their federal head (i.e. all unregenerate human beings, including us in our pre-salvation days). In the second, those who have Christ as their federal head are "the many." In verse 17, we see the same thing, where we have death reigning through those in Adam, and those in Christ reigning in life. In verse 19, we see again that "the many" were made sinners (i.e. the unregenerate, those "in Adam") and "the many" who are in Christ WILL BE made righteous. Again, the certainty of the future final sanctification leaves no doubt that Paul is referring in the second case to those who are in Christ. So we see a back-and-forth comparison between those in Adam and those in Christ. That is why I think it is not a stretch at all to suggest that the verse in the middle of the ones I just mentioned are referring to "all men" in Adam in the first clause and "all men" in Christ in the second. The first result, condemnation, was applied to me from birth. The second result, justification, was applied to me from my new birth. That falls in line with the flow of Paul's argument and avoids the whole "actual condemnation/potential justification" dilemma I mentioned before. "So, here is where I would see your objection differently. The atonement is not just potential. It is an actual, objective fact. Our sins are not atoned for at the moment each of us prays for forgiveness." I agree completely regarding the atonement. It was accomplished for me 2000 years ago. However, we mustn't confuse "atonement" with "justification. The two terms are not interchangeable. My sins were atoned for before I even existed, but my justification is an act of God in my lifetime brought about through faith in Jesus Christ. Paul uses the term justification. Either I am automatically justified by what Christ did, apart from faith (contradicting verse 1); or else I am not automatically condemned by Adam's transgression (contradicting verses 13-19); or else "all men" in the clauses refers to two different groups just as "the many" does in verses 15 and 19. Tricky passage, huh? :) --Joe! |
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3 | Predestination question? | 1 Tim 2:4 | srbaegon | 85109 | ||
Hello Joe! Congratulations on the twins. This is a tricky passage. Verse 18 in the GNT has no verbs, which doesn't help. That being the case, the verb has to be inserted based on the context. So, is it "resulted...results" as NASB or "led...leads" as ESV or "came...comes" as NET or ...? My point: I'm wondering if the real comparison is that one person brought death and one person brought life. That's all. What do you think? And I hope Tim is reading and responds. Steve |
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4 | Predestination question? | 1 Tim 2:4 | DAIRYLEADER5 | 85128 | ||
interjecting 1 cor.,15;45 thru 49, Heb 6;4 thru 6, the bible gives us an insight on who will be saved and who wont, God gives us clasifications of people that wont, 1 tim;1;8 thru 10,a special look at rev. 21; 8 is very inlighting, this may not be part of your answer but i thought it might help to know. | ||||||