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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Do you have scriptures to affirm? | 2 Thess 2:3 | mark d seyler | 187767 | ||
Hi cheri, I'd like to respond to these questions, if I may. Before I do, I want to clarify that my understanding is that Jesus will catch away the church at the beginning of the 70th Week. 1 - After Rev. 3 the Church is no longer seen as being on earth. If the church is still waiting to be caught away, where are we? Since the Church is not specifically stated as being either in heaven, or on earth, I think we have to look elsewhere for this answer. This would be an argument from silence. However, I find it most interesting that as the 144,000 Jews are being sealed, they are "the" servants of God. If the church is still on the earth at that time, they would be servants of God also, so these 144,000 wouldn't comprise the entire group. Following their sealing, an innumerable multitude appears in heaven. That would sure answer the question of where the rest of the servants of God went. However, this is not explicit. 2 - REv. 19:9 (this is before the 2nd Advent) If the church is still on earth, then who are those present at the marriage supper of the Lamb? This is a very strong argument in favor of rapture before heaven opens, and Jesus begins His return to the earth. In this passage, the wedding is an accomplished fact - its already happened. This places the church in heaven with Jesus clearly before Jesus is on His way back to earth. The church CANNOT be those who are gathered to Jesus after He leaves heaven for His bodily return to earth. 3 - Rev. 19:14, if the church is still on earth waiting to be caught away, then who makes up the armies of the Lord that return to earth with Him to set up the millennial kingdom? This could be angels, or could be the redeemed. The passage isn't explicit. The logic question. A post-trib rapture can make sense in that Jesus, having protected the church during the partial judging of the earth up til then, removes the church before unleasing total devastation upon the world, as the bowls are poured out, and the armies of the world destroyed. I don't think this is a correct view, but this is the logic as I understand it. I wanted to respond to these because I think that there are a number of "proofs" of pre-trib rapture aren't actually very solid, but on the other hand, there are, in my opinion, a number of extremely solid evidences in favor of pre-trib rapture. One thing to consider is that the gathering of Matthew 24:31 CANNOT be the rapture of the Church, because it does not include all believers. The remainder of the believers not gathered in Matt 24:31 will be a part of the gathering of nations in Matt 25, specifically those who are separated out as the sheep. Likewise, that gathering CANNOT be the rapture of the Church, because both saved and unsaved are gathered together, then separated. The Rapture (catching away - not gathering) will be all those who are in Christ, and none who are not. Therefore, it cannot be the gathering of the elect in Matt 24:31, nor the gathering of the nations in ch. 25. It MUST come before those, since those close the age, and as we've already seen, the wedding of the Lamb will have already happened. Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Do you have scriptures to affirm? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Searcher56 | 187782 | ||
God's day to you, Mark, What do you do with the resurrections in Rev 20? - When do they happen? - How does the "rapture(s)" play in? S |
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3 | Do you have scriptures to affirm? | 2 Thess 2:3 | mark d seyler | 187786 | ||
Hi Searcher, How many raptures are there, in your view? For me, the rapture is a singular event as those who are "in Christ" at a certain moment in history are caught up into the sky to be with Jesus. Those who had died are resurrected, and those still alive are joined to them, to meet the LORD in the air. As far as Revelation 20: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; Is this the verse you have in mind? I don't see a "catching up" in this verse, so I don't figure this to be the rapture. These are clearly ones who were beheaded during the reign of the beast, and so they would not include all of the believers throughout the age. This does not describe a translation of the living either. Seems to be different to me. Then there are the others "resurrected" if you will, in Rev. 20: Rev 20:5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; Even though these "live again", they are still the dead: Rev 20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, This is not the rapture, either. These are not the redeemed. Does this help to clarify? Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | Do you have scriptures to affirm? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Searcher56 | 187833 | ||
Mark, I believe the rapture of Thessalonians and elsewhere maybe the second resurrection (Rev 20:5), since the first only included those who refused the mark and other things (Rev 20:4). If there is rapture before the tribulation, where are the belivers during the 1000 years? They are not going to reign with Him, since they didn't refuse the mark and other things (Rev 20:4). I think no matter when one belives we will be caught up, we have problems. For me it doesn't matter ... all that matters is that I'll live with Him forever. S |
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5 | Do you have scriptures to affirm? | 2 Thess 2:3 | mark d seyler | 187849 | ||
Hi Searcher, I've never heard this view before. There are a couple of things that occur to me about this. One is that while Rev. 20:4 says that these particular people will live and reign with Christ for the 1000 years, it doesn't say that none others will. If other Scriptures establish that others will be with Christ as well, that would still hold true. But this verse doesn't prevent that. Also, the second resurrection is hardly a resurrection. These, even after they live, are called "the dead". Personally, I believe that: The Bible is knowable. The Bible teaches a particular thing. Once we understand correctly, we see harmony. If there is rapture before the tribulation, we'll be exactly where the Bible says we'll be - with Jesus. Love in Christ, Mark |
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6 | Do you have scriptures to affirm? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Searcher56 | 187869 | ||
Mark, We will have to agree we differ. It is a minor point. I believe Revelation 20:4 states who'll be reigning with Christ and there will be no others. I think it is dangerous to add other, when the Bible doesn't. S | ||||||
7 | Do you have scriptures to affirm? | 2 Thess 2:3 | mark d seyler | 187873 | ||
Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, Rev 5:10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth. Who do you suppose this is referring to? Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. This is another interesting verse in connection with this topic. then there is: 1Pe 2:9 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Just some thoughts, you needn't answer. Love in Christ, Mark |
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8 | Do you have scriptures to affirm? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Searcher56 | 187909 | ||
God's day to you, Mark, I am not sure I am correct being post-trib. I haven't studied it in depth, because it is not that important to me when I am maded alive forever more ... I know I'll be with Him forever. Revelation 5:9-10 are the saints who have died in the past, at the time of the scene, which includes our past and up to that time. Daniel 7:27 needed so be looked at the context, including verse 25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." ... when are the saints worn down? I believe 1 Peter 2:9 is a current application or titles we have, even when it was written ... "You are" ... not "You will be" S |
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