Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | New Creature | 41650 | ||
Is a man predestinated by God to salvation because he believes in Christ or is he enabled to believe in Christ because he is predestinated? |
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2 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | Jensen | 41671 | ||
Dear New Creature.... Predestination, to be properly understood, is best described by analogy. Let me offer this. If I begin to read a book but do not want to read the whole book...say a murder mystery...and I want to know who the murderer is, I would turn to the last chapter. Then, also in the later chapters I would know what the various characters did, or did not do. I can know the outcome of each character without starting in the beginning of the book and going, page by page, through the whole book. I am outside of the time frame of the book. I can look at any part of the book and know, without writing anything new in the book, the actions of each character. Likewise, God is outside of our time frame. He knows what we will do because He can "read" any part of my life, like a book character. But that does not mean that God made us come to Christ. The opposite is true. If predestination is true then there is no freewill. God Bless….Jensen |
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3 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | John Reformed | 41771 | ||
Dear Jensen, Nice analogy, bad theology. God knows the end of the mystery because He is the author, not a mere reader. God does not make man come to Christ. He does not force His will on anyone. What God does do is raise spiritualy dead creatures to eternal life. 1 Cor 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." He opens their eyes and ears and they are set free to repent and cryout to Jesus for salvation. Eph2:1-5 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" That hardly seems like making someone recieve Christ. John Reformed |
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4 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | Jensen | 41787 | ||
Dear John...I am sorry that you missed the point. I agree with everything you wrote. The analogy works. Predestination, as understood by contemporary sinners, does not work. God knows what we will choose. He knows when He will offer His Gift to us. He knows our hearts, He knows when we will come to the final challenge of death, and if we will be with Him or not. He knows all this prior to our natural birth. Prior to our life being played out by us. I hope I have been a little more clear on this point. We have no disagreement on theology that I am aware of. You implied that I was irreverent. But God is the Author of life, and not, as you say, "a mere reader" and I never implied that. That is why I began with stating that to understand predestination, an analogy might help. I mean no disrespect. Chill :-) God Bless....Jensen |
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5 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | John Reformed | 41792 | ||
Dear Jensen, I am not hyper-calvinist but I may be getting hyper-sensitive. I do find my patience wearing thin. It's the old story: when I try to do good, I find sin is present with me. Nevertheless, I don't find your book analogy to be representaive of biblical predestination. This is why: You do (perhaps unwittingly)picture God as reacting to what He discovers in the book. This is comparable to the arminian view of pre-destination which is that God looks down the corridors of time and sees those who will (of their own free will) choose Christ. They then use this theory to explain how God uses this kind of foreknowledge as the basis on which He elects people. Do you see my point? I also apologize for misreading your last paragraph. John Reformed |
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6 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | Jensen | 41796 | ||
Dear John....Thanks for your quick reply. Just like the fat man said when he crawled under the barb wire fence "Just one more point and I will be through" God does not react to what He discovers in the book (analogy.) He is a Player also. And He knows what each little part will be played out. OR you may not believe, as I do, that God knows what the final outcome will be. I can not argue predestination because I deny it's existance....as understood by our contemporaries. And here is why. Predestination eliminates any chance at all that we come to Christ freely since Predestination would be a plan for our lives. Just like the machines we invent. A lawnmower will always be a lawnmower. The lawnmower is predestined. It will never make the choice to be a hedgetrimmer. Predestination does not exist, can't, never will. OR freewill does not exist, can't, never will. I go with the former :-) It just makes sense to me. God Bless....Jensen |
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7 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | John Reformed | 41801 | ||
Dear Jensen, Predestination and free will do co-exist. The elect of God at the moment of regeneration have their eyes and ears opened to the truth of Christ. They see their sinful condition and repent. The non-elect are passed by and are left to follow their fallen nature. Of their own free will they continue in their sinful rebellion and hatred of God and His elect. Their are ample proof texts to support my belief, but I want to get this post off now while you are still online. John |
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8 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | Jensen | 42347 | ||
Dear John...Thanks...I think I may be confusing predestination with election. Please tell me which statement would best describe your belief. 1)God knows before we are born the free choices that each man will make during his lifetime. Or 2)God, through His Holy Spirit, directs (not prompts)a man to choose Christ making him an elected. You may see my confusion :-) God Bless....Jensen |
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9 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | John Reformed | 42393 | ||
Dear Jensen, 2)God, through His Holy Spirit, directs (not prompts)a man to choose Christ making him an elected. This statement is the closer of the two, but is not an adequate description either. I prefer this definition: the result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out"... Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day", and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14) "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God".. What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit(I Peter 5:10) "After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you"...! The following 2 definitions may help you to understand the difference between predestination and election. (Easton's Bible Dictionary.) Predestination This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29,30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5,11; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events. This doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many difficulties. It belongs to the "secret things" of God. But if we take the revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with all its mysteriousness, and settle all our questionings in the humble, devout acknowledgment, "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight." Election of Grace The Scripture speaks (1) of the election of individuals to office or to honour and privilege, e.g., Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, were all chosen by God for the positions they held; so also were the apostles. (2) There is also an election of nations to special privileges, e.g., the Hebrews (Deuteronomy 7:6; Romans 9:4). (3) But in addition there is an election of individuals to eternal life (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2; John 13:18). The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God (Ephesians 1:5,11; Matthew 11:25,26; John 15:16,19). God claims the right so to do (Romans 9:16,21). It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of soverign grace (Romans 11:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-6). All that pertain to salvation, the means (Ephesians 2:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:13) as well as the end, are of God (Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 2:25; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 2:5,10). Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God's work, a "new creature." Men are elected "to salvation," "to the adoption of sons," "to be holy and without blame before him in love" (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Galatians 4:4,5; Ephesians 1:4). The ultimate end of election is the praise of God's grace (Ephesians 1:6,12). Whether or not you agree with the the Reformed view of Salvation, If you take the time to read the scriptual proofs, you will see that it is indeed a biblicaly based doctrine. On top of that you will have a more accurate understanding of it than most of it's critics. God Bless Jensen, John Reformed |
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