Results 1 - 13 of 13
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58850 | ||
Find this law in the Pentateuch. I've tried and can't even find any reference to it. I do find reference to the prophetess Miriam, Moses sister who sang praises to the Lord with him leading the Israelites in worship in Exodus. I also find reference in Numbers 37 to the daughters of Zelophehad approaching and SPEAKING before the whole congregation demanding they not be cut out of their father's inheritance---and God sided with them. But to this point directly, if The Pentateuch is not the law referred to in this NT verse, then we go to local law which is a custom, which rather cuts the meat out of your stated argument on this issue in other posts. |
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2 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | EdB | 58851 | ||
jesusfreak508@aol.com You and Kalos have sure been going at this. I keep trying to get you two to look at the context, remember without context the scripture becomes pretext. :-). From scripture there is no sustainable argument that Paul was saying women should not talk in church nor can it be shown he is addressing just a local custom (where women were seated apart from their husbands and hollering across the church to ask questions). He is saying the women is to be in subjection to her husband, I think we all agree to that. He said if you have a question ask it when you get home I think we all agree to that. What then could he be talking about. Could it be women that were intentionally or unintentionally asking questions that the husband should have addressed before as the head and priest of the family? Can you imagine how it would reflect on a man if his wife stood up and asked, “is a tithe only 5 percent?” Everyone would look to the husband and first ask what are you trying to pull, if he was innocent of withholding his tithe then the next question is why haven’t you fully explained the law of tithing to your family. The women may have one of two motives for doing this one ignorance on her part, her husband had in fact failed to perform his duty. Or she knew the answer but wanted to embarrass her husband. Either way she would out of subjection to her husband and Paul was saying this was wrong. Remember the Man was schooled in religious matters the women were to be taught by their father and later by their husband. EdB |
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3 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58853 | ||
I am obedient to the Bible in church and in my home. Even when it is VERY difficult. I have learned that even when I've had to nearly chew my tongue off to submit, the joy the Spirit fills me with makes it ever worth it. But this is a study forum and neither my pastor, my husband, nor my father is present. I come to this forum to learn. I am eager for the posts of such as you and the others who come to me with reason, research, inspiration, and/or a teaching spirit/heart. Perhaps if I explain it this way. I believe the Bible is the literal Word of God. I am Woman. And I have already gotten killed once because I was armed with incomplete, sloppy teachings of God's Word. I have been redeemed, but my Redeemer has told me to learn/study His Word to protect myself and those I love from further attacks by the old foe. He did not say memorize it. He said learn it. Study it. Know it. I take that very seriously. I was just in my room telling my husband I needed to pray about this guy Kalos. I was asking him to join me in prayer, because as I told him, I feel like my cat when our rottweiler comes in the house. And my cat feels like the dog is a danger to her. And she's right. I don't think Kalos is the devil or anything like that, but I do believe he is a sloppy teacher. Rather like the biology teachers at university who refuse to have creationism discussed in their classes because you must accept their "proven" curriculum to get the grade. And as I've said, I do see sloppy teachers as a very definite danger to me in this forum. If you will pray about this too, that I learn not to be affected by anything he says or the manner of his delivery, then we will have three in agreement.... Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. As woman I've already been led down the garden path once, this time I'm double-checking and triple-checking my sources. Now my husband wants the computer so being the good Proverbs wife he adores...gotta go! God bless, Melanie |
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4 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | EdB | 58905 | ||
Melanie You intentionally or unintentionally have attacked Kalos' hot button the infallibility of the Bible. The Bible is not open to conjecture, when we allow conjecture to be come part of the picture the Bible is not longer the standard. The person that determines what it means and whether it pertains to us today now becomes the standard. Look at it this way. If I read a passage in the Bible and said I don't like that, it must be wrong or it not does pertain to me. I further devise a logical explanation for why this passage does not pertain to me what have I accomplished? Have I followed the Bible? No! I have rewritten it by explaining it away. When ever try to make the Bible fit us we are in trouble we are to fit the Bible. EdB |
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5 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58915 | ||
So again, my original question. Who determines the line between what is the logical explanation and what is rewriting it? And if I am praying constantly as I study, praying specifically in fact that I be led not into what I want it to mean but what the Lord intended it to mean, are you saying that I can be lead wrong? Melanie |
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6 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | EdB | 58917 | ||
Melanie You take the reading literally within context. If that is done properly there isn't a problem. If you apply any extraneous meaning then the problems begin. Melanie yes you can pray and still be mislead. First we have to know the master’s voice, there can be many voices (our own, the deceiver’s and God’s). Secondly we have to make sure we have submitted our will in those prayers. If I have my hands around a guys throat and pray God help me I can still strangle the person. I do believe if we pray and come up with the wrong meaning it will not sit well and it will remain an open question. I suspect this is an open question in your mind. If God had settled it, you probably wouldn’t be open to discussion on it. When God confirms something in our mind we tend to get dogmatic about it. EdB |
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7 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58926 | ||
That's my whole point. My wrestling with this was finished. I had cried over it, questioned it, 'it's not fair!', etc., etc., then had made peace with it because my Walk has already taught me God is just never wrong. I had settled myself into obedience. As I said in another post, even though no one in my church expects such a thing. I felt the peace of it in my spirit, so I know I was doing as the God willed. Yet I did not get dogmatic. In discussion with the youth and women, I would simply testify to my experience with this verse, and my sure knowledge that this was how God expected me to behave in our study sessions with our pastor. The peace within me over it was my "proof". You would think it was settled. Except it does not sit well with me as a blanket order to all women in all churches in all situations as starkly as it translates in our English language Bible. I would say within context it literally means that a woman has no right, and is dead wrong, to speak out in church, or to my mind in any public situation, in such a way as to indicate shortcomings with or disrespect to or lack of submission to her husband, or to her pastor. But Kalos and others, do not share that view. They see it as a direct order for women to simply be silent in church. Always. No exception. That is the point that does not sit as settled with me. You are a blessing by the way. With every post I send up a little prayer thanking God for putting you in a place where I can draw upon your wisdom. Melanie |
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8 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | EdB | 58931 | ||
Melanie Your understanding of the meaning of this passage and I quote you, "I would say within context it literally means that a woman has no right, and is dead wrong, to speak out in church, or to my mind in any public situation, in such a way as to indicate shortcomings with or disrespect to or lack of submission to her husband, or to her pastor." Is absolutely correct!!!! I might add another person her father. If anyone tells you different they simply are not reading within context. I know many respected bible scholars disagree and I know even my favorite teacher John MacArthur disagrees, However in the context of this writing Paul is very clear. He is talking about a women being submitted to her father, husband and you bring a good point her pastor, in such way they would never disrespect that person, especially in the context of a public church service. Maybe you should let that become dogmatic in you. :-) EdB |
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9 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58939 | ||
I just thought of another one to add to places she should not do it -- not just in public, but also, not in front of her children. And I was just reading another post in this thread written by Kalos on Wed 11/14 in response to userdoe220 and now I have NO IDEA where he stands on this. In his posts directed to me, it would seem he is arguing exactly the opposite of what he is saying in this older post. But thank you, Melanie |
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10 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | EdB | 58940 | ||
Melanie I think you light Kalos up by seemingly to challenge the word of God. From there it went down hill. I'm not sure what Kalos thinks but I have learned to respect his opinion. He follows the teaching of John MacArthur who holds a women should not teach men or hold a position of authority over men in a church. That is in agreement with 1 Timothy. EdB |
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11 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58955 | ||
I think Kalos, and John MacArthur (I'll have to look him up and do some reading), need to come to my little church or one like it where the women GREATLY outnumber the men, and those here are on average pretty old and for reasons of other demands on their time or more often just the ill health of themselves or their wives, they simply cannot, or will not, accept a leadership role. My husband is constantly held up in prayer at our church simply as an example of what we need, young men, young husbands and fathers. And even though he loves the Lord and his faith is growing by leaps and bounds all the time, still getting him to take off early on Wednesdays for Wednesday night services or to take off a whole Saturday to help clean up the church grounds or do some building or repairs, etc., is like pulling teeth. I'm not saying that in judgement of him because it is something we have publically discussed amongst our church and everyone understands his reasoning, especially since our pastor often finds himself in the same situation and as a result is in a constant state of trying to balance work-pastoring-church services-and-his family. If the women were not allowed, no, if the women were not expected to teach and hold positions of some authority within our church, it is our church that would suffer. We work it out in that we are all lead by our pastor, and as such under his authority even in our leadership or teaching positions. But this is also true of the men in leadership and teaching positions. And personally, I even when teaching the youth and the women, invariably discuss (and pray) what I am going to teach with my husband because I believe the Bible tells me to do this, but also because I truly value his insight and opinions. And it's never happened, but I don't think I would teach something if he disagreed with me. I know that I have disagreed personally with one thing that my pastor wanted me to teach to the youth, in response to something they brought up out of left field, and I had the Scripture to back up my thoughts on it, but he also had Scripture, and he was my pastor, so I taught the way he felt lead that it should be taught. In fact I went back to it with them and we had a great lesson on why my teaching MUST be lead and subordinate to his teaching and authority. I wish Kalos would understand that there is a difference between challenging the Word of God and challenging how he lives/interprets/uses the Word of God. Wasn't it Paul who also said that he should come to where I am? Thoughtfully, Melanie |
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12 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | EdB | 58959 | ||
Melanie I did not say women should not teach. No I said they should not teach men. Teaching youth or children is not teaching men, or challenging the God given role of a man therefore creates no conflict. I also think women can teach under the authority of the husband, acting as help mates to him. Again if a pastor can not find a man to teach men and there is a women that will accept the task under the pastor’s authority I don’t see a problem there also. In this case the males have abdicated their position. EdB |
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13 | Hi JesusFreak | 1 Cor 14:34 | jesusfreak508@aol.com | 58968 | ||
I didn't think you said women shouldn't teach, Ed. I understand you. In fact, I wish you were in my church because I think you would be a would be a wonderful teacher. And I look forward to learning much from you here in this forum. Melanie |
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