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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Kathy, Is "Lifting His name" Biblical? | John 12:32 | Hank | 104027 | ||
Searcher, I quite agree with you, and it is pushing Scripture to hang on to the phrases "lift up" or "lift up His name" and insist on their being applied to something we do on behalf of Christ. In the plain language of John 12:32,33, it is horrifying to think of lifting Christ up to be crucified again on the cross. Moreover, we are most presumptuous to think that weak and sinful man can "lift up" His holy name. He is very God of very God. Who do we think we are that we have the power to lift up the name of the Son of God? His name is already and eternally lifted up: His name is above every name, and it is not within our poor power to lift it up. It is we, not Christ, who are in need of being lifted up. We need to revise our terminology. "Lifting up" Jesus is not something we are commanded to do, nor can do. He lifted me out of the bonds of sin and death and gave me life. I have no power to lift Him! The terminologies we should be using -- and stop toying around and playing silly word games with this "lifting up" business (We are taking it out of its biblical context in John 12:32,33) -- are words such as praise, worship, love: these things we can do. And should do. These things Jesus commands: to praise Him, worship Him, love Him. The only people who ever "lifted Him up" crucified Him! Must we insist that He be lifted up again and again? God forbid! ....... This thread and another similar one have their genesis in a bad interpretation of John 12:32,33 by a user who took the passage of 12:32 out of context, apparently ignoring 12:33. From it two long threads have issued. That's par for the Forum course. We latch onto a thin thread and weave it into a fuzzy piece of cloth a mile long :-) It wearies me. I think I'll mulch leaves tomorrow and give my body some exercise and my soul a rest! God's blessings, Steve. --Hank | ||||||
2 | Kathy, Is "Lifting His name" Biblical? | John 12:32 | stjones | 104035 | ||
Hank and Searcher; Double posting is probably bad manners, but these comments are addressed to both of you. You guys really need to lighten up. In my church, we occasionally sing this litle chorus: Lord, I lift your name on high. Lord, I love to sing your praises. I'm so glad you're in my life. I'm so glad you came to save us. It may not be Isaac Watts or Fanny Crosby, but it simply and honestly praises Jesus. Do you actually believe that the intent or the effect of this song is to re-crucify Christ? Do you actually believe that the words violate some command or principle found anywhere in the Bible? Hank is right; we should stop "playing silly word games". All this huffing and puffing about a common English word that neither Jesus nor John ever spoke has gone way too far. The poor guy who made the mistake of separating John 12:32 from John 12:33 was thoroughly chastised in a different thread. The rest of this argument has been an exercise worthy of the Pharisees. So tell me, gentlemen, how many angels CAN dance on the head of pin? Peace and grace, Steve aka Indiana Jones |
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3 | Are we listening to each other? | John 12:32 | Aixen7z4 | 104044 | ||
God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. "Double posting" is just one device we use to try to get a point across. The only purpose of this second of a "double post" is to encourage us to listen to each other. This is obviously hard to do. Those who want to lift up the name of Jesus will not listen because something tells them that they should. Can't we listen to them? Psalm 34:3 allows them to lift him up that. Exalting him and praising him are the same thing. “Exalt ”equals “Lift up”. It is the same thing. "Exalt" is the same as "lift up". The idea is to talk or sing about how great God is. And please don’t say we do not need to do that. Many scriptures encourage us to do that. Our brothers and sisters want to do that and here they tell their reasons. Their main reason is they want unbelievers to hear how great God is and to be attracted to him. That idea is soundly scriptural. Can’t we listen to them? I suggest that we need to read the passages cited and just think a little bit. Swift to hear. Slow to speak. That is what we are encouraged to do. The idea of lifting up Jesus is a scriptural idea. But it is not the kind of lifting up that Jesus was speaking of in John 12:32. Can't we just admit that? Lift him up. But use other scriptures. To insist that the idea is in contained John 12:32 forces us to focus on the cross and to rejoice and feel shame at the same time. It impels others to talk about crucifying him again and bringing him to an open shame. It causes one to wonder whether conversations like this do not bring him to an open shame. What if an unbeliever comes on to read his thread? What are they to think? And yet, some tell me that our 7-11 songs are not lifting up Jesus at all. (I only learned recently that that is what they call some of our songs, where we sing seven words eleven times and there’s no substance to it). "Lord, I lift your name on high". Does that mean that we are lifting his name on high? If I say, "I am preaching the gospel" does that statement constitute a preaching of the gospel? Contrast that with the psalms. Psalm 34:3 "O magnify the LORD with me". That is the call, only the call, the alarum, the alert. "Let us exalt his name together". That is only another alert. It is a "Get ready". Psalm 34:4 "I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears". Now, that is substance. That is praise. Now, we are lifting him up. Psalm 34:5ff "They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed. This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles. The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them". That is praise. That is saying good things about him. And do you wonder why we need to do it? It is first of all to give him his due. He says (Psalm 50:23) "Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me". He is pleased with it. Not with empty words that say, "I am lifting you up". Lift him up with words that tell of the character he has and the actual things he has done. If you read Psalm 103, Psalm 104, Psalm 136, you cannot help but see that there is substance there. We need to have more than "I am singing, I am singing". Psalm 34:8 "O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him". This is where we invite the unbeliever to listen. It is his invitation to trust. It is the second reason we lift him up. We lift him up in song. That means we sing about his great deeds, and how wonderful he is. We want our unsaved neighbors to know that. That is one reason we lift him up. Please listen to them and do not accuse them of bad things. But they need to listen also. If it has not been said before, I say this here: Put some substance into the songs. Don’t just say you are lifting him up. Lift him up. Talk of the things he has done. Describe how wonderful he is. But I wonder if you will listen. You used to sing, "O Lord my God, when I with awesome wonder, consider all the worlds thy hands have made. I see the stars. I hear the rolling thunder. Thy power throughout the universe displayed. Then sings my soul, my Savior God to thee, How Great Thou art! ..." But you have abandoned songs like that for songs that say you are praising God when that is all they say. This is not a put down. It is the truth. And I am suggesting here that you listen. I am not suggesting that you listen to me. I am suggesting that you listen to yourselves. And listen to each other. |
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4 | Are we listening to each other? | John 12:32 | Scribe | 104066 | ||
Part 1 of 3 I would say that having considered our use of worship songs in the church I have come to the conclusion that as in all areas of our relationship with Christ that the best path to take is that of faith. What I mean is that when we worship the Lord in spirit and in truth scincerity and honesty should be expressed toward God in such a way as we individually have faith and understanding, or knowledge to walk in. If a person is well read in the Old hymns and that is what produces faith and expressions of heart felt worship toward God for him then they should do that. But it is not love nor understanding to think that all other people will also be moved by the same hymn. Some who are at a different place in their faith are almost offended by some of the words in some old hymns that others find inspiring. So if a brother or sister is full of faith and praise toward God giving a heart of thanksgiving toward God by singing, "Lord I lift your name on High.. Lord I love to sing your praises" and he sings it 7 times or 717 times, If he is from his heart thanking and Praising God, then it is far better than singing 100 Traditional and Theologically Rich hymns with your mind on the football game or business or God forbid the pretty woman two rows away. There is much more I could say about that but let me say what I most want to say. I have observed many things in the church in the past 24 years. And one of the most interesting and puzzling phenomenons is this area of contemporary worship music in mainline evangelical denominational yet not charismatic or pentacostal churches. You see having not attended church or been involved in religion growing up, I was saved in prison and had no knowledge of form or style of worship when I was first saved. I would read the Bible and the Holy Spirit would illuminate my understanding as to how I should live for God from the scriptures. I saw that Jesus and his disciples sang hymns so I asked for a hymn book and received a book of traditional hymns. The first song I learned was “Precious Memories” I never really liked it, but it was the only one that someone in the cell block I was at knew the music to. Then someone taught me the tune to Amazing Grace which I had never heard before either. I would pray and sing one of these hymns almost daily as a ritual because I was trying to do what Jesus did. Then one day someone visited me and taught me “This is the Day that the Lord has Made” well compared to the Amazing Grace you might think that the simple little song “This is the Day that they Lord Has made” is 7-11, but my worship time was transformed into something wonderful and non ritual when I sang it for two reasons. One I was singing the Word, the song was just a Psalm put to music, and to me was more supernaturally edifying than all the words of Amazing Grace put together. See Amazing Grace might be a wonderful song and the words of the writer might be considered classic and genius, but they are nothing compared to one sentence of God’s Word. Give me one sentence of God’s Word taken from the Psalm and I will sing it 7 times 70 more than words of men no matter how intellectual they seem. The other reason this type of song produced more spiritual growth and maturity in me than the intellectualism of the old hymns was that I was singing from my spirit and not just my head. If you worship from the spirit it does not matter if you only have one phrase from the Psalms , it is enough. Granted there are some songs that are not from the word or even contrary to the Word that I do not think we should be singing, but they are not that common, and I would say there are more of those in the hymnals than in the modern chorus music that is so popular. I personally do not sing songs in church to teach other, nor do I sing them as a means to learn, I sing to worship God. If singing songs is a good way to pass on doctrine to your children then we should sing some of the old hymns but certainly not all of them are sound doctrine. And finally I want to express how amazed I am at the acceptance of the contemporary music in the mainline denominations such as Baptists, or even Methodists etc. Why I am so amazed is that 20 years ago there is no way a local Baptist church in my community would have ever sang songs that had their origin and authorship in the Charismatic or Pentacostal Movement. CONTINUED ON NEXT POST |
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5 | Are we listening to each other? | John 12:32 | Radioman2 | 104073 | ||
Boys and Girls: Christian music (i.e., the preferred style, traditional or contemporary), believe it or not, is one of the most controversial issues in the church today. Isn't this thread (Is lifting His name related to this vs?) long enough without tacking on an off-topic sub-thread? It might be better to post a new question to start a new and separate thread on styles of Christian music. Just a suggestion. :-) I'm not scolding anyone. --Radioman2 |
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