Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Questions??? | Matt 27:3 | EdB | 74424 | ||
John Say what you want Calvin was "hired" to defend the reformers against Rome. And that he did. He was not nor to the best of my knowledge ever claim to be a theologian. He was hired to write speeches for the true reformers. His Institutes of Christianity were a defense to the King of France and one in which he lost and was forced into exile. In exile in Geneva he was once again hired to defend the reformation and here even played a major role in a man being burnt at the stake. Incidentally he was only saved about 2-3 years previous to writing the Institutes and unless you claim divine intervention I would say they were written by a “babe” in Christ. If a person did the same thing today without the social and political backing Calvin had you would discount the whole thing as laughable. Instead you use it to modify the intent and teaching of the Bible. He did not initiate reformation nor was he a major driving force, he did become the mouth piece. In my opinion Calvin has been elevated unjustly not by the validity of what he said but rather by having the limelight focused on his objections to Rome. And that was done for purely political reasons. Do I think the Reformation a good thing? I don't know. I know the church was mired in corruption and change had to be wrought. Did the reformation accomplish that? Yes but not without a price. Social ideological changes are what gave the reformation it's genesis not a spiritual awakening. People wanted to be able to choose what they believed rather than what was told them to believe. This when guided by the Holy Spirit can be good. However as we see much of it was lead by the human desires, prejudices, goals aspirations and in some cases mistaken theology. Would I prefer the Pope? I don’t know however I do know the church is splintered and fragmented and is so busy fighting within itself that the world is dying and going to hell while we sing the praises of the reformation. The Catholic church holds to things I can not and will not agree with, however much of what is taking place in the protestant churches is not that much better. To me many of the reformers were men called to initiate change within the church that lost sight of that vision and allowed the wind of change to lead them to separate themselves from the church. This in some degree was/is a determent to the Christianity. EdB |
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2 | Was Calvin just a slick lawyer? | Matt 27:3 | John Reformed | 74489 | ||
Ed, When one makes blanket assertions that tend to cast another in a bad light, it is only fair to provide evidence to support their accusations. What is your evidence? John |
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3 | Was Calvin just a slick lawyer? | Matt 27:3 | EdB | 74507 | ||
John First John why even suggest of such inflammatory term as "slick"? Study Calvin and draw your own conclusions. I stated facts which any accurate historical portrait of John would include. Calvin’s training was as a lawyer his intention was to make money. He was pressed into service to defend the reformers from Rome. Again he was never trained in theology nor did he ever claim to be a theologian. He was hired to find chinks in Rome’s position and exploit them in an effort to disprove Rome’s infallibility. The Reformation after it was ignited was fought more on political/social issues of who actually would obtain/maintain controlling power, Rome or the government of the country. Therefore the primary pursuit was not theological purity but rather a way to prove Rome wrong and therefore capable of making mistakes thus weakening their hold on the religious throat of the people and governments. In this pursuit Calvin presented many plausible contradiction to Rome’s established position. This was done to defeat Rome again not for the express purpose of theological correctness. However after something is repeated often enough it begins to become the accepted norm. When Rome’s power was finally broken theologians began trying reestablish correct Biblical doctrine, that it was found Calvin’s arguments had been mistakenly taken as gospel and Calvin’s supporters in many cases paranoid of Rome rising again refused to accept otherwise. As I said he wrote the Institutes of Christianity in 2-4 years after his salvation with no previous study or without claiming divine guidance. Not as a theological effort but rather a legal brief to the King of France defending the position of the reformers. He knew and exploited the King’s weakness, because Rome had established doctrine and non clergy knew little if any of the actual Bible, the King was open to any logical appearing defense. If the same thing would be attempted today and presented the same contradictory conclusions to orthodoxy as did Calvin they would be discounted by established theologians as ramblings of a mad man. Yet because they served a purpose that being the freedom from Rome they were proclaimed and later accepted as truth. Think about it. EdB |
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4 | Was Calvin just a slick lawyer? | Matt 27:3 | John Reformed | 74511 | ||
Ed Any one may say any thing they want. But when the character of a person is brought into question, then the one who is doing the talking bears the burden of proof. Why should I accept unfounded allegations? For all I know you may have bad info and have been decieved yourself! I want to know from what source your information is coming from so that I know whether to take it seriously or not. If your next post to me does not contain that source, I will take it that you don't have any to give and will feel free to treat your assault on John Calvin as merely mud-slinging propaganda. In the meantime, you should know that you have offended many of your brothers who hold to the doctrines of grace which Calvin and other of the reformers preached. I am not saying that you are a bigot but, I must tell you that what you are saying is founded more on religious bigotry than historical fact. I am not totally ignorant of church history myself. John |
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5 | Was Calvin just a slick lawyer? | Matt 27:3 | EdB | 74524 | ||
John Wait a minute I said nothing about Calvin's character. I merely stated facts on his training, and his involvement in the Reformation. A ready source would be “Church History in Plain Language” by Bruce Shelly published by Nelson Publishers ISBN 0-8499-2906-7 pages 274-281. If Calvin’s lack of Biblical/Theological original language and exegesis training or a statement of his actual involvement in the reformation insults anyone I’m sorry but facts are facts. Again you are trying to deflect the discussion from the subject unto me. Your veiled implication that I would manufacture lies and I was a bigot are unjust and unwarranted, and I might add reveals much. I expect an apology or I will report this as an abuse. EdB |
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6 | Was Calvin just a slick lawyer? | Matt 27:3 | Reformer Joe | 74533 | ||
'A ready source would be “Church History in Plain Language” by Bruce Shelly published by Nelson Publishers ISBN 0-8499-2906-7 pages 274-281.' A great reference work. However, I do not see anything in there that paints Calvin as you do nor substantiates any of the claims you have made. "If Calvin’s lack of Biblical/Theological original language and exegesis training or a statement of his actual involvement in the reformation insults anyone I’m sorry but facts are facts" Where did you get your info that Calvin was not trained in the languages of Scripture? Being a classical scholar, what languages do you think he learned? Swahili? And, contrary to what you have claimed at least twice, Calvin never became a lawyer. "Your veiled implication that I would manufacture lies and I was a bigot are unjust and unwarranted, and I might add reveals much." John is saying nothing of the kind. He is simply implying what I am saying outright. You and whatever source you are using are just factually incorrect with regard to the events of the Reformation and of Calvin's life. You cited Shelley. Please give us an exact quote from him which substantiates that Calvin was a manipulative lawyer who was hired by anyone to defend Protestants against Rome. It simply is not there. Check your facts before posting them, please. --Joe! |
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7 | Was Calvin just a slick lawyer? | Matt 27:3 | EdB | 74548 | ||
Joe Perhaps you would be so kind to supply information to where Calvin studied Hebrew and Greek. Where he study theology and under what teaching was he trained in exegesis. Luther was a peasant, a monk, and a university professor; Calvin, a scholar and LAWYER called to a turbulent public ministry in a nourishing business community. Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub. Emphasis mine. Calvin’s organizing and executive abilities enabled him to build on the work of Zwingli. Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub. Calvin entered the University of Paris at fourteen and mastered not only a brilliant writing style but a skill in logical argument. Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub. After Paris, at his father’s insistence, John turned to the study of law in the universities of Orleans and Bourges, but his father’s death in 1531 left Calvin free to pursue his own interests. Thus he returned to Paris as a student of the classics, intent upon a scholar’s career. Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub. In the autumn of 1533 Calvin was so closely linked with his friend Nicholas Cop that when Cop gave a strongly Protestant address as rector of the university, some suspected Calvin wrote the speech. Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub. As a preface to the Institutes, Calvin addressed a remarkable letter to Francis I, King of France, defending the Protestants in that land from the criticisms of their enemies, and vindicating their rights to a respectful hearing. No one had spoken so effectively in their behalf, and with this letter Calvin assumed a position of leadership in the Protestant cause Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub. EdB |
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8 | Was Calvin just a slick lawyer? | Matt 27:3 | BradK | 74561 | ||
Forum: I offer this soley as a source, not in any way to add fuel to the fire:-) Pertinent to this discussion is what Phillip Schaff writes of Calvin and his education: "Calvin received the best education—in the humanities, law, philosophy, and theology—which France at that time could give. He studied successively in the three leading universities of Orleans, Bourges, and Paris, from 1528 to 1533, first for the priesthood, then, at the wish of his father, for the legal profession, which promised a more prosperous career." "His principal teacher in Greek and Hebrew was Melchior Volmar (Wolmar), a German humanist of Rottweil, a pupil of Lefèvre, and successively professor in the universities of Orleans and Bourges, and, at last, at Tuebingen, where he died in 1561. He openly sympathized with the Lutheran Reformation, and may have exerted some influence upon his pupil in this direction, but we have no authentic information about it. Calvin was very intimate with him, and could hardly avoid discussing with him the religious question which was then shaking all Europe. In grateful remembrance of his services he dedicated to him his Commentary on the Second Epistle to the Corinthians." Schaff, Philip, History of the Christian Church, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1997. Speaking The Truth In Love, BradK |
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9 | Was Calvin just a slick lawyer? | Matt 27:3 | EdB | 74563 | ||
Bradk Remember Schaff is a Calvinist and he is right Calvin did attend schools in Paris in what most would consider a liberal arts education. If you read any liberal arts curriculum today you will see much the same wording to describe what will be taught. His education certainly was not theological but more humanistic. After leaving Paris Calvin attended law school in Orleans and Bourges when his father died he returned to Paris intent on following a scholastic career when he was SAVED. To suggest he was preparing for priesthood or studying theology prior to this would be to say he was doing it as an unregenerate that by his own words would have nothing to do with God. What Schaff calls a study in language was more a tutoring by these professors later in life after he had written his Institutes and he was in the process of correcting and refining that document which was a life long experience. To suggest Calvin studied these languages as a Biblical scholar when he attended Orleans and Bourges would be to say he was doing so before his salvation and not very likely. EdB |
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