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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Bill Mc | 12897 | ||
Dear Joe, thanks for the reply. Please allow me to respond to a couple of things you said: "Our spirits however, are not 100 percent SANCTIFIED at conversion." See Eph 1:4; Eph 5:27; Col 1:22 and especially 1 Cor 1:2 - '...to those who HAVE BEEN (past tense) sanctified in Christ Jesus' 1 Cor 6:11 - '...but you WERE (past tense) washed, but you WERE sanctified, but you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ...' Heb 10:10 - 'by this will we HAVE BEEN (past tense) sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ...' Heb 10:29 - '...and has reguarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS (past tense) sanctified...' There is only three things you can do with these verses, Steve: 1. Accept them as truth. 2. Reject them as lies. 3. Redefine sanctification and what it is. Redefination is the road most often chosen. Most theologians get around the truth of these verses by saying what the Bible does not say and that is... "There are three dimensions to our sanctification as revealed in Scripture: initial, progressive, and final." Please show me these words used of our sanctification in the New Testament. They are not in there. What you are really saying is that you DON'T BELIEVE that Christ has done it ALL and that, somehow, YOU must do it. So theologians relegate their unbeliefs into "Positional" and "Practical" truths. "Positional" means, as I understand it, that "God said it so, somehow it's true, but it doesn't make sense to me so it's a positional truth." "Practical" means, "Though I know what God says, here is what my experience tells me. So I'll rely on what experience says instead of God and His Word." Please don't take this the wrong way, Steve, but 'hogwash.' Truth is truth. Truth is God's viewpoint and His perspective is reality. Christ has done it ALL. Because people will not except the Scripture as true they decide to put their own spin on it and attempt to invalidate what Christ has done. Or they say, "Well, yes, this is truth, but it only applies to when we get home, in God's presence." Support? "Final justification occurs when the believer enters God's presence, and is made perfect in righteousness." Let me ask you, child of God, what is it about the physical death of your body that would make you justified in spirit, soul, or body before a holy God? What is it about being 'in God's presence' that would justify you? What impact would the death of your body have upon you being righteous, holy and blameless before God? I believe that Christ alone and His work justifies me before a holy God. The state of my body is inconsequential. If a holy God can now dwell in me, it is ONLY because He has already made me holy. Paul says that the temple of God is holy and THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE. Not 'what you will be.' "We may positionally be seated with Christ, but I think you would agree that that is practically not the case in our lives as we now live them." I don't agree, brother. Again, you need to resort to positional and pratical truths because you will not accept what God says as TRUTH. I am spiritually (in God's true, eternal, outside-of-time realm) seated with Christ (Eph 2:6) though my physical body is seated in a chair typing this note. Just as I was crucified, raised, and seated with Christ spiritually 2000 years ago. In this dimension called time, I get the wonderful experience of 'seeing' what I know to be truth by faith 'worked out' in my life. We live godly lives, brother, because Christ lives in us. If Babe Ruth's spirit came inside you, would you want to take up ballet? What would you want to do if Babe Ruth's spirit dwelt in you? Well, we have Christ's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, living inside of us. He causes me to live a holy life, not so I WILL BE holy, but because, I AM HOLY. But it is not because of what I do or don't do. It is because, through Christ, I have become a NEW CREATION, created in righteousness. Do I do good works? Yes. But not to affect my status before God. I do them because OF my status before God. "God wants righteousness from His people." No, brother, God wants His people to accept and believe in the righteousness that comes FROM God. The Jews sought to establish THEIR OWN righteousness through keeping the Law. And the Pharisees would agree 100 percent with your statement and tell you exactly what that should look like. So, Steve, are you going to believe what God says about your sanctification, exercise faith and accept it, or are you going to cling to your nice little 'positional' and 'practical' truths? The truth is there, dear brother. As the Keeper of the Holy Grail said, "Choose wisely..." In Christ, Bill Mc |
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2 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Reformer Joe | 12910 | ||
Bill: What is "hogwash" is your understanding of the three aspects of sancification. In addition, I think it is arrogance to assume that here in the twenty-first century you have figured something out that every major figure in church history DENIES. Sanctification means simply "to be set apart." The verses you quoted in your first paragraph all support the truth that when we were regenerated, we were spiritually set apart from those who were perishing, for a specific purpose (1 Peter 2:8-9). Again, this happens at our conversion, when we are justified. Sanctification and justification, however, are different things. However, as I noted in my other post, while Christ did indeed secure my salvation 2000 years ago at Calvary, in a practical sense, I am not holy in all my behavior. If this were already a PRACTICAL truth for Christians, then Peter would not have had to write to believers to "be holy yoursleves in all your behavior." (1 Peter 1:15). The words "holy" and "sanctified" are the same in Greek. Would you say that you are holy in all your behavior? I sure wouldn't say that about myself. Neither would Paul. In Philippians 3 he expresses the idea that even though he has been called and set apart for eternal life, that in this life he has not achieved holiness in practice: "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained." --Philippians 3:12-16 There we have it: the fact that Christ has attained it for us, but the paradoxical statement that Paul is pressing on to attain what Christ has attained for him. We also see that paradox in 2:12-13 (we work, and yet God works). Therefore, in one sense Christ's righteousness has been imputed to our account and we have been declared righteous (rather than the "infused" righteousness of Roman Catholicism), but another sense in which that spiritual reality is to be lived out in our day-to-day existence, with a goal in mind and by the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul concludes chapter 3 with a verse which shows that we still have perfecting to look forward to, which is in keeping with the final moral perfection we will attain when God does away with this body of death and all vestiges of our sinfulness. On a side note, your comparison of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with that of Babe Ruth's smacks of animism and Eastern mysticism. We are not to "turn everything off" and let God operate our bodily shells as if we were robots. Look at Philippians 2;12-13 again. Our wills are definitely involved in our conforming to the image of Christ. "Let go and let God" is NOT Scriptural. The "let God" part is, but nowhere are we commanded to divorce ourselves from our sanctification. --Joe (not Steve) |
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3 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Bill Mc | 12938 | ||
Dear Joe (not Steve, my apologies), In Philippians 3, look at what Paul is talking about. Consider context. Look at verse 11 - "In order that I may attain to the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained it..." Joe, is he not talking about the completed creation? When we stand before God redeemed not only in spirit, but in soul and body also? He is talking about PHYSICAL bodily resurrection in verse 11, is he not? How could you miss this? As I understand it, this perfect can be translated 'complete.' We will not be 'complete' until we have our new resurrected bodies. But our spirit is our identity. And our spirits have been joined to Christ's Spirit, haven't they? As to righteousness, Rom 5:16 says that it is a gift that must be received. How can you earn a gift? 2 Cor 5:21 - When was Christ made sin? When we made righteous (it says made, not declared, brother)? Eph 4:24 - Put on the new self, which in the likeness of God HAS BEEN (past tense) created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Phil 3:19 - the righteousness which comes from God (not ourselves and our efforts) on the basis of faith (not good works or Law-keeping). You said, "Therefore, in one sense Christ's righteousness has been imputed to our account and we have been declared righteous (rather than the "infused" righteousness of Roman Catholicism), but another sense in which that spiritual reality is to be lived out in our day-to-day existence, with a goal in mind and by the power of the Holy Spirit." Bingo! You do understand! So it is, as you say, a spiritual reality. Right! Because it is a reality, we live it out! I have never said, "Let go and let God." What I would say is, walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. My "resting in Christ," which you seem to loathe is far from an inactive, stagnant, lethargic,'robotic'attitude which you seem to think it is. I agree, our wills ARE definitely involved with our outward conforming to Christ's image. But, it is a attitude that says, as Christ did, "God, I trust that YOU and YOU ALONE will be my source for everything I do. And that I will do it only because YOU are doing it through me." This was Christ's attitude. He said that He said nothing and did nothing unless the Father told Him to say or do it. He relied COMPLETELY upon the Father as His source for everything. Let me ask you, Joe, was Christ a 'robot?' Did He 'turn everything off?' No, of course not. He trusted God the Father to operate through Him every moment of His life, even when, in the garden, His human will wanted the cup to pass from Him. This is my goal, brother. Not to keep the Law of Moses, but, rather, the law of Christ. I want to say, as Paul did, "I, Bill Mc, no longer live, but Christ (not the Law) lives in me. And the life I live in my body, I live BY FAITH (not rules) in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. It is anything but 'turning everything off.' It is almost scary to trust God that way. I lived out of my flesh (self-sufficiency) for so many years. My life is now hidden IN Christ. And, trust me, Joe, it is anything but inactive. In Christ, Bill Mc |
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