Results 1 - 3 of 3
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Son or son? Holy Spirit or holy spirit? | Gen 1:26 | Morant61 | 65424 | ||
Greetings Zerotheory! I am getting ready to go to work, so I'll have to be brief. 1) Col. 1:16: To whom does the 'He' of v. 16 refer? He is the 'Son' of v. 13. He is image of God in v. 14. He is the head of the Church in v. 18. He is the firstborn from the dead in v. 18. He is the fullness of God in v. 19. He is the one who shed His blood on the cross in v. 20. Clearly, these are all references to Jesus. 2) John 1:1-4: Again, the text makes it clear that this is a reference to Jesus. Look at v. 14. "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." It was not the Father who created, but the Word, and John 1:1-14 makes it perfectly clear that Jesus is the Word. The question is: Will we accept what the Word says? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Son or son? Holy Spirit or holy spirit? | Gen 1:26 | zerotheory | 65491 | ||
Tim, Thanks for all of your help. I'm sorry but I see [Col.1:16] as: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. I see it as the "him" is in reference to [v.15]: Who is the *image* of the *invisible God*, the firstborn of every creature. Correct me if what I'm seeing is not correct but: [v13]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. [v.14]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. [v.18]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [v.19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell. Clearly there is reference to Jesus but there is also reference to [ver.3] "We give thanks to God **and** the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you." The passage does not read [God, our Lord Jesus Christ]. [John 1:14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the **only begotten** of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ***NOTE****IMPORTANT**** The definition of begotten: [websters] "To cause to exist or occur; produce". It appears as though you believe in Trinity as the Godhead. So let me ask you, if the Godhead is all seperate but equal Gods then why is it that Jesus refers to "my GOD" in [Mark 15:34] "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If Jesus were part of a Godhead then first, why would he feel forsaken, and second, why wouldn't he know he couldn't have been forsaken? Jesus could not have been forsaken because the Godhead could not have continued to exist without him and if he were the God would have know that. |
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3 | Son or son? Holy Spirit or holy spirit? | Gen 1:26 | Russel Gauthier | 65507 | ||
ONLY BEGOTTEN: I haven’t the faintest idea what line of thought you are trying to follow in the argument I just read from you. Since I cannot comment on your overall argument because I have no idea what you are trying to show, I will comment on a few things that you said. First of all you defined the word, “Begotten” found in John 1:18, 3:16 as, “To cause to exist or occur; produce”, because that is the definition found in the Merriam Webster dictionary. NEVER use an English dictionary to define words in Scripture, because the Bible wasn’t written in English. Translations are inadequate, in that they cannot fully translate the true meaning of Scripture. They are translations of the Scripture, but they are not the Scripture themselves. So we need to look at the use of the word, “Only Begotten” and define it according to its usage in Greek, since the New Testament was written in Greek not English. The word used in John 1:18 and John 3:16 is monogenhs. This is defined as, “only…unique(in kind), etc.”, according to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature(Bauer). He gives example upon example of its use in the LXX and other Greek writings showing that this was the meaning of the word. The Oxford Greek-English Lexicon(Liddell and Scott) defines the term as, “1. Only, single. 2. Unique. 3. the only member of a kin or kind”. Because of this usage of the term in the Greek world many translations translate the term monogenhs as, “ONE AND ONLY”, because this was the sense meant by the term. Even when we go over and translate it as “BEGOTTEN” the implication is not of natural birth since that term was a lot of the times applied to situations where there wasn’t any family relation implied at all. Even if a family relation term was implied in John 1:18, 3:16, this can only be interpreted metaphorically ie. that Jesus is the Only Son--there is no other--He is one of a kind. This is evident, because if we were take it literally we would have to insist that there was a Mother God who with the Father God begot the Son. To be “begotten” in the literal sense means that someone has begotten you-- “to procreate as the father”[MW], and procreate means to, “beget or bring forth (offspring)”[MW]. But this is heresy. Rather, the terms, “Son” and “Father” are relational terms of family, which help us get some understanding of the nature of Jesus. But we cannot push these metaphors to their furthest extent ie. Jesus was created, or was brought forth through Divine sex, etc. You also said, “It appears as though you believe in Trinity as the Godhead. So let me ask you, if the Godhead is all separate but equal Gods”.Well, I don’t know how to respond to this question, because True Trinitarians will never say that the Godhead is composed of three equal Gods. The doctrine is that the Godhead is composed of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. But never that they are three Gods. They are of one substance and cannot be divided in such a way that you would say Three Gods. This would be against Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!”. This does not invalidate the trinity, because we still believe He is One God, of one substance, indivisible(such that you can’t say three Gods of equal Gods or GODS). Furthermore you are ignoring the fact that the Scriptures make it clear that Jesus is God, cf. John 1:1 and John 1:14, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”, “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”. Now you cannot argue that Jesus ceased being God because it says that the Word WAS God. Because then you are implying a change in a perfect God. Look at Malachi 4:1, “For I, the LORD, do not change”. God cannot change in His being, such that something that was Him would cease being part of Him, because that would imply that God changed and therefore is imperfect. In John 20:28, Thomas called Jesus his Lord and GOD. Jesus didn’t rebuke him. In fact Jesus responded by saying, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."(v.29). Therefore we are Blessed when we believe that Jesus is both Lord and God. Furthermore just because Jesus was “forsaken” does not mean that He ceased to be Yahweh. It does not state that in the text. He was forsaken in another sense. It nowhere states in the text that He ceased being God. You would have to show a verse showing that Jesus ceased being God at that moment to validly bring up that objection. Because of the fact that He is God, we have to figure out a way of interpreting this text that will take that into consideration, since we cannot ignore verse proving His deity. |
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