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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21888 | ||
Greetings Charis! As I asked Hank earlier, is it really necessary that we set up an either or situation? Must I love my brother or have sound doctrine? Aren't both possible? In my opinion, God has clearly stated His intentions in the Bible concerning salvation. So, I do view myself as assuming anything. John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, 2 Pet. 3:9 (among many others)clearly say that God desires all to be saved. We can debate labels to no avail, but what does Scripture say? The reason I say that one is right and one is wrong is simple. One says that God does not desire all to be saved. The other says that God does desire all to be saved. You can put whatever label you want on these views, but one is right and one is wrong. Saying that both are right would be like saying that the statements (God is good and God is not good) are the same thing. Right now, the thing I am most concerned about is the apparent assumption that is being made on this thread that sound doctrine is not practical. Scripture says, 1) 1 Tim. 4:16 - "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." 2) 2 Tim. 4:3 - " For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 3) Titus 1:9 - "He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." 4) Titus 2:1 - "You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine." I am not directing these quotes at the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. I am directing them at the comments I have been hearing that make it sound like theology and doctrine are incidentals or fleshly pursuits and the other things are much more important or spiritual. Doctrine or theology is that from which our Christian lives spring. What I mean is, "As a man thinks, so he is..."! The first several hundred years of church history demonstrate how important theology is. The doctrine of the trinity was being challenged. The Biblical view of the nature of Christ was being challenged. What if they had simply said, well doctrine isn't really important? As I said earlier though, I don't consider the differences between the two "camps" to be fellowship breakers. I do consider the differences to real though. I'm sure where the "to the death" part came from though! :-) Maybe it was on a post I haven't read yet! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | charis | 21979 | ||
Greetings in the name of Jesus! Friend, with all due respect and love in Christ I say this, you are proclaiming that you are right and they are wrong. You are stating that sound doctrine equals, or at least includes High Theology, a.k.a. salvation theory. I find that your version of sound doctrine contains a good deal of assumption and conjecture, and has no practical use or application. It is a hobby. I'm sorry if you disagree with that, but when you can prove to me from the Bible that this bent changes your salvation experience or your walk with Christ, then I will consider one label or another. "God so loved the world..." I believe this without having to defend the word 'world.' "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined... Who will bring a charge against God's elect?" I don't need to be a scholar to believe these words mean what they say. Because I trust God, I see no contradiction, nor do I see any reason to build upon either one of these "ideas" a theory that denies the other. It doesn't matter in my life, in my walk, in my preaching, in my fellowship, or even in my private musings. "As a man thinks, so he is..."? Is this somewhere in the Bible? (I already know that it is not! :-)) This is human philosophy. Been there, done that. "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise." 1 Corinthians 3:18 NASB. After saying all that, I guess that I have 'said my peace.' (piece? :-)) I have tried to explain that I do not believe there is a 'middle road,' only a narrow one to be close to Jesus. I do not deny thought, only impractical thought. That this grates on you is obvious, possibly even more than a 'good debate' with a Calvinist! If half of the 'High Thinkers' are wrong, what of the 'Low Thinkers' like me? Are we even more wrong? :-) I guess there are a lot of wrong people, and few right ones, as I don't know if many saints would meet the criteria of 'sound doctrine.' My 'to the death (end)' comment meant to the judgement seat of Christ, or final reward. :-) Blessings, Tim and audience! :-) In Christ Jesus, charis |
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3 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21985 | ||
Greetings Charis! The quote I was refering to was the first part of Prov. 23:7 (KJV) - "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: ...." Frankly, I am stunned that now I am going to have to defend the fact that I study the Bible. Doctrine and theology are impractical, and a hobby? I really don't know how to respond to that my friend! So, I guess I won't! :-) But, if you are going to accuse me of assumption and conjecture, please point out in Scripture where I have done that! I am a little stunned at the responses I have been receiving from you on this thread. The whole point of the thread was can there be a middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism. I simply gave my opinion that the core of both could not be reconciled. Since then, I have been told that I am arrogant, impractical, guilty of assumptions. I have never responded to, or been responded to, in this way in all my discussions whith those who believe in Calvinism. I haven't insulted you, called you unbiblical, or anything. I really don't have any explanation for any of this! Your Confused Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | charis | 21989 | ||
Dear Tim, Greetings in the name of Jesus! I did not say that all doctrine and all theology are impractical and a hobby. I said that theorizing who WILL be saved and who will NOT be saved is beyond our ability to know in a practical sense, therefore a hobby. ( a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation-Webster's) That is, unless you are a seminary professor! :-) I have asked several times what practical difference this topic makes. How does it change my walk, my service to Christ and His church? It seems that the answer to this question would clarify whether it is a hobby or not. Friend, there is a difference between making and arrogant statement and being arrogant. I do not accuse you of being an arrogant person. I say that the topic is impractical, and no one, as yet, has even tried to explain the practicality of knowing whether Christ died for the world or for the elect. It is assumption to think that we KNOW the mind of God completely on ANY topic. (I might add that ALL are guilty of this once in a while!) I can remember several posts that made similar statements on both sides, though I don't know if any were directed to you, personally. Asked why I think that there is reconciliation between these two camps, I have tried to answer that the division is moot, and that pursuit of Jesus would answer both satisfactorily. This reconciliation was spoken of as impossible, and I disagree. But in order to find this reconciliation, we might have to sacrifice some of the more 'intellectual' ways of thinking, i.e. think with the heart, not with the mind. After all, it is not the issue that is irreconcilable, but the people. :-) I would imagine that you feel insulted because I touch upon something that is dear to you. I honestly do not make you my target. I am targeting a bent, a preference. I might add that MY preference has been targeted many a time. Tim, you asked me to explain! Again and again! So I did. Nothing personal or antagonistic, but I guess too blunt. :-) I am new at discussing such lofty matters, and therefore not very polished. I will work on my presentation, and my manners :-( Sorry. In Christ Jesus, charis |
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5 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21990 | ||
Greetings Charis! Thanks for the response! I was beginning to worry that you were upset with me personally for some reason! I really am not insulted because of your position on Arminianism or Calvinism! The label is not what is dear to me. What upset me was the apparent implication that people who believe one way or the other are not as spiritual as those who accept both or don't accept either. What upset me was the apparent implication that theology is not practical. But, apparently, that is not what you meant! I'm glad that you are not upset with me! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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