Results 1 - 10 of 10
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21829 | ||
Greetings Ray! I was afraid there for a minute that someone might think I was referring to Harry Potter! :-) Maybe I am misunderstanding some of these posts, but I get the impression that because I have taken a position on this issue that some (of the middlegrounders) think that I am putting words into God's mouth. My outrageous position is: 1) That God desires all to be saved: 1 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2) That Christ atoned for everyone's sins on the cross: 1 John 2:2 - "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 3) That Salvation is a gift offered to all: Rom. 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." 4) That everyone who calls on God will be saved: Rom. 10:13 - "for, ‘‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”" 5) That salvation is entirely based upon faith and grace, not upon works: Eph. 2:8 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." This is just a short summary of my beliefs, but would someone among the (middlegrounders) please tell me exactly where I am putting words into God's mouth? In all of my debate with Calvinists on this forum, I have been treated with the utmost respect. We have discussed and disagreed over various verses, but no one ever accused me of putting words into God's mouth or being arrogant because I took a position. Ironically, I have felt the most "offense" from those in the middle who claim that the reason they are in the middle is because of division! So, if someone wants to debate or discuss what Scripture says, I am more than willing. But, please don't accuse me of trying to put words into God's mouth or of being arrogant beause I have taken what I believe to be a Biblical position on salvation. This isn't just in response to your post Ray! I have been feeling this from most of the responses I have received on this thread. I just don't feel that I have to be apologetic over what I feel is a Biblical position. Now, if you can show me that I am wrong, I will be more than happy to change my view. Until then, I will continue to believe that Christ died for all and desires all to be saved! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | EdB | 21848 | ||
Tim Again I agree with Charis, I have never addressed any response within this thread at you or any one else with the exception of Lionstrong and Ray after both addressed directly at me. What I'm saying is I have been an Arminianist for years but in the last 3-6 years God has shown me some things that caused me to rethink my position. Since I held that Calvinist were wrong I found myself in an interesting spot. I was then forced to approached salvation seeking a solution rather than trying to define or oppose either position. I think through that experience I learned how little I knew about the salvation miracle and realized it could not be summed up by either Arminian’s explanation nor Calvin’s EdB |
||||||
3 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21859 | ||
Greetings Ed! My friend, please see my response to Charis for more detail (I am very pressed for time). If you have some insight into why each position is wrong, I would love to discuss it. But, the kind of thing I was discussing is illustrated in your last sentence. "I think through that experience I learned how little I knew about the salvation miracle and realized it could not be summed up by either Arminian’s explanation nor Calvin’s." Now, I realize you are not trying to offend, but it comes across like, "I used to believe one way or the other until I learned more about salvation." :-) I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but I believe what I believe because I really believe that it is Biblical. If it is not Biblical, then I want to know! But, I don't feel like I have done anything wrong because my beliefs happen to line up with a system of theology called Arminianism. I've got to run, I am going to be late for work! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
4 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | EdB | 21877 | ||
Tim Have you every talked to a person that said "When the Pastor gave that salvation call I knew it was for me, I knew I had to respond, but I just wouldn't." Or have you talked about to the person that came forward for salvation and have them say, "I don't know what I'm doing here, I just found myself here and I want Jesus." I am certain true salvation only occurs in those the Holy Spirit stirs as much as I'm sure true salvation only occurs in those that want more of God. So to me it takes the Calvinist's 'irresistible call' and the Arminianist's 'I want to' working together. But both those terms came into play but neither was the final factor. I’m totally convinced a tear jerking, play on emotions does not produce true salvation, however true salvation can come out of it. I’m equally convinced a dry hopeless message does not produce true salvation yet true salvation can come out of it. As I have said I have seen people driving by a church and stop and come in for salvation “Irresistible call” in the same sense I have people tell me God have been chasing them for years and they knew salvation was the only answer they just refused to given in. “Free Will” EdB |
||||||
5 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21891 | ||
Greetings Ed! I have seen many strange and wonderful things concerning salvation. I have been involved in amazing last minute salvations. I have seen people come to Christ out of the blue. I have been led by the Spirit to share Christ with people whom I thought were going to lash out at me physically they were so angry, but only minutes later were on their knees accepting Christ. I have talked with a man about his salvation, only to have his wife come in and ask if she too could accept Christ. A have had young children come to me because their parent's thought they were too young to accept Christ. I've seen almost 20 children come to the altar during VBS. But, I base my theology upon what Scripture says, not my experience. Does God seek and call? Or course, we know from Scripture (John 16:8) that the Holy Spirit convicts! But, that is not the crucial issue for me between C and A. The crucial issue to me is, "Does God desire all to be saved or not?" When I go out to evangelize, I do so with the full assurance that Christ died for all, loves all, and that He wants everyone to come to repentance. To me, this is the heart of Arminianism (or whatever label you want to attach)! So, what is so divisive or wrong about that? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
6 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | EdB | 21892 | ||
Tim I think I can put my finger on the problem. first let me quote you from your response to Charis, "The reason I say that one is right and one is wrong is simple. One says that God does not desire all to be saved. The other says that God does desire all to be saved. You can put whatever label you want on these views, but one is right and one is wrong." The Calvinist point of view goes much beyond this as does Arminian. I think the problem is we focus on one part we disagree with and throw the whole concept out. I guess what I'm saying is middle ground can believe the, Arminian concept, that God wants to save all, but no one is saved until God calls them with, Calvinist concept, a call that is irresistible, only to those that want more of God. EdB |
||||||
7 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21894 | ||
Greetings Ed! I would agree that God calls, but whom does He call? The Calvinist position is that the call is limited only to the elect and irresistable. Thus, God only calls those whom He has elected to salvation. He does not call, nor does He want the rest to be saved. The Arminian position is that the call is universal, but resistable. God wants all to be saved, but only those who respond to the call are saved. Yes, there is more to both of these positions, but this is the core of both! Everything just expands upon or explains this basic core. Concerning your purposed middle ground, let me ask a couple of questions that I might better understand what you are purposing. 1) Since God wants to save all, does He call all? 2) Is the irresistible call based upon wanting to know more about God or based upon God's desire to save all? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
8 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | EdB | 21905 | ||
Tim To question your questions 1. Yes I believe God does offer salvation or call all. 2. I believe the call becomes irresistible to those that tasted and want more of God. However I think there are those that were offered a taste and refused. I think there are those that tasted and found the taste not within their desire. And I think there are those that refused to taste but a little bit fell from the spoon hit their spiritual mouth and whetted their appetite and they had to have more. EdB |
||||||
9 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21916 | ||
Greetings Ed! Based on your answers, I would say that we view salvation identically, except I wouldn't use the term irresistable call. I believe that God desires all to be saved. I believe that Christ died for all. I believe that God offers salvation to all. I believe that every idividual, not just some, can respond to the offer of salvation. I believe that not everyone will respond affirmatively to the offer of salvation. So, we are fully in agreement! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
10 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | EdB | 21947 | ||
Tim Yes your right but I have also seen an irresistable side that will not let me say Calvinist don't have a point. I have seen some come to Jesus almost as if they had no control, like God have chosen them and they had to respond. EdB |
||||||