Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Ray | 21823 | ||
Hi Tim, I think that we all can read what He said. I fear that what this debate is about is rather what He will say in the future at judgment day. The debate wants to determine for themselves who the sheep and goats are and who the judges will be. | ||||||
2 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21829 | ||
Greetings Ray! I was afraid there for a minute that someone might think I was referring to Harry Potter! :-) Maybe I am misunderstanding some of these posts, but I get the impression that because I have taken a position on this issue that some (of the middlegrounders) think that I am putting words into God's mouth. My outrageous position is: 1) That God desires all to be saved: 1 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2) That Christ atoned for everyone's sins on the cross: 1 John 2:2 - "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 3) That Salvation is a gift offered to all: Rom. 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." 4) That everyone who calls on God will be saved: Rom. 10:13 - "for, ‘‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”" 5) That salvation is entirely based upon faith and grace, not upon works: Eph. 2:8 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." This is just a short summary of my beliefs, but would someone among the (middlegrounders) please tell me exactly where I am putting words into God's mouth? In all of my debate with Calvinists on this forum, I have been treated with the utmost respect. We have discussed and disagreed over various verses, but no one ever accused me of putting words into God's mouth or being arrogant because I took a position. Ironically, I have felt the most "offense" from those in the middle who claim that the reason they are in the middle is because of division! So, if someone wants to debate or discuss what Scripture says, I am more than willing. But, please don't accuse me of trying to put words into God's mouth or of being arrogant beause I have taken what I believe to be a Biblical position on salvation. This isn't just in response to your post Ray! I have been feeling this from most of the responses I have received on this thread. I just don't feel that I have to be apologetic over what I feel is a Biblical position. Now, if you can show me that I am wrong, I will be more than happy to change my view. Until then, I will continue to believe that Christ died for all and desires all to be saved! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | charis | 21840 | ||
Dear Tim, Greetings, my brother, in Jesus' name! I pray that I am not included among the 'middlegrounders' that think you are putting words in God's mounth. Every post I wrote on this topic (a topic that I have carefully stayed away from until now! :-)) was directed at the 'general populace' of the forum, and never directly at you. (Except the statement that you have shown much balance in your posts) I cannot disagree with any of the Scriptures you quote! My 'beef' is toward any extra-Biblical nomenclature (A,C,XYZ), and the anti-(A,C,XYZ) exaggeration or dilution that I often see among extremists and absolutists. BTW, I still prefer 'Jesus-centric' or maybe 'Narrow-roader' to 'Middle-grounder!' :-) Blessings, dear friend, in Christ Jesus, charis |
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4 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21858 | ||
Greetings Charis! In a general sense, I would say yes! Consider the following statements from your past posts: 1) "The problem is the arrogance of man to believe that he has 'ascertained' the mind of God, then label it according to his fancy." 2) "These are the Scriptures that are 'explained away' in order to prove their 'counterpart' wrong, often to the denial of the literal application of the Word of God." 3) "Man's zeal to prove his brother's mistake often leads HIM astray." 4) "Shame, shame on the intellectual pursuit of salvation 'theory,' to the end of degrading their brother." It seems to me that these are directed at strawmen, not what we actually believe. Arminianism is a term that I didn't even know for the first 12 years of my Christian life. But, when I began to study theology in college, I found out that it was a label for a theological system of thought which happened to line up with what I had found in Scripture for myself. I don't agree with every point of classic Arminianism. For example, I don't agree with the veiw that election is based upon God's foreknowledge of future faith. But, overall, I think it is an excellent summary of Biblical teaching on salvation. The problem I have had with this thread is that those of us (including Calvinists) who believe a certain way are basically being accused of dishonesy, arrogance, and division. Not based on our actual treatment of Scripture, but simply because we have taken a position. The assumption seems to be that since the "debate" has gone on so long that neither side can possibly be right or wrong. Yet, the Divinity of Christ has been debated since the founding of the Church. Are we wrong to take a position on that? I am not trying to say that everyone must believe the way that I do. I am just saying, "Don't critize me simply for having a position!" If I have handled Scripture incorrectly or falsly, point it out to me. Well, I've got to get ready for work! I care about and respect you my friend! I don't intend to offend you in any way, but I honestly have felt like I (and everyone else who has taken a position) have been critized because we have taken a position. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | charis | 21860 | ||
Dear Tim, Greetings in Jesus' name! Brother, I appreciate your response. Please know that I do not criticize you for taking a position, nor have I observed you (purposely) mishandling Scripture. I add the paranthetical only because none of us can know the exact and perfect meaning of the Bible, some strive to do so, and some just 'feel' one way or another. From the depth of your posts, I would categorize you as a 'striver,' about the best compliment I would give anyone! :-) Are these 'strawmen?' I doubt it, my friend! Just a few hours going throught the C vs. A posts on this forum alone would clearly show that many are arrogant, dogmatic, vehement and antagonistic in their leaning toward one bent or the other. Honestly, I do not include you in this crowd! I guess it was just a 'turn of the card' that I was entering the fray by responding to you. Tim, my post was to the forum, and I am truly sorry if I sounded as if you were my target. Please accept my apologies. That said, and I pray accepted, I must say that many 'extremists or absolutists' have indeed shown forth arrogance and division. I don't know about purposeful dishonesty, but possibly zeal for or delusion in their particular bent. I would guess that you could not be categorized as such, because you admit that you stray from 'classic' Arminism. :-) That alone makes you kind of a 'Middle grounder,' yes? :-) (side note: I can't bet, but I would guess that a lot more people are 'Middle-grounders' than they would care to admit, or even realize themselves! Many call themselves one thing or another without knowing the extent of that label. Is this a possibility?) As I have stated elsewhere, my 'beef' is with: 1) the nomenclature - "I am an A (or C)," without really knowing what it means, or agreeing with the 'entire' bent. Then we would have the 'Neo' and the 'Modifed' versions. This sounds suspiciously like, "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos." 2) the bigotry and arrogance - "Just look it up in the Bible, and you will see that I am right, and you are wrong!" "Can't you READ?!" etc. 3) the division - I personally find it hard to believe that a major portion of Christianity (whicever it may be!), after abundant study of Scripture and living otherwise Christ-and-church-serving lives, will be found guilty of gross misinterpretation of the Holy Bible on that day. My brother, after we have had to hear from the both of ya'll (A and C) for all this time, please allow 'us' to say something! :-) Peace to you in Christ Jesus, charis |
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6 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | Morant61 | 21871 | ||
Greetings Charis! Thanks for the response my friend! I really didn't take offense personally as much a collectively! :-) Allow me to make a couple of quick comments! Concerning point 1), I would agree that many just use the label without really understanding the issues involved or having studied them. But, there are also many, like me, who do understand what the labels mean. To me, the labels are meant to be convient, not binding (if that makes sense)! Concerning point 2), this should never be the attitude of a Christian in a debate. The focus should always be on Scripture and done in love. Concerning point 3), I really don't see a big issue with division. I don't personally see the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism as being so great that we can't fellowship as brothers and sisters in Christ. I even have family members who are Calvinists! :-) But, I do believe that is entirely possible for large numbers of otherwise good Christians to be guilty of gross misinterpretation. I see it all the time on other issues. Finally, I would love to hear from you (or us) middlegrounders. But, I do have a favor to ask! Let's deal with what Scripture says rather than simply saying that one or both sides are wrong. If the middle grounders have Scripture to support their position, I would love to hear it! After all the posts on this thread, I still haven't seen one explanation of what the middle ground is or how it differs from C or A! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Is there middle ground? | Romans | charis | 21873 | ||
Dear Tim, and saints of the forum, Blessings in Jesus' name! Just for starters: 'For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?' 1 Corinthians 1:11-13 NASB 'For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.' 1 Corinthians 2:2-5 NASB. In Christ Jesus, charis |
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