Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Predestination: scriptures meaningless? | John | JRdoc | 61256 | ||
YOU STATE: Also, it is clear that all men DO have a small amount of light. No one is in total darkness:.. John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. So you think just because a light shines that a blind man can see it? It does not work that way naturally or spiritually, that is why you need a Great Physician! Just because a light shines DOES NOT mean one can see it (2 Cor 4:4). Even the verses surrounding your proof text (John 1:9) are intriguing and disprove what you say: John1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not…. Notice it was not comprehended. Why, because they are blind and dead…. John 1: 11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. How does one receive Christ? The Scripture itself explains: not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God—One may see and believe and enter into the Kingdom of God because of the work of God John 3, not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-10). Please note it is important to keep CONTEXT with the verses you quote for you assertions. ---- YOU SAID: God has dealt every man the measure of faith needed for a fair choice: …Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Who is Paul writing to? The CHURCH—notice the terms --every man among YOU! -- CONTEXT, CONTEXT! You may prove any faulty argument if you remove the context of the verses citied. --- YOU SAID: Does'nt predestination make these scriptures meaningless? No, it just affirms its need! Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The word is US (toward US, for US) and not ALL. Again, CONTEXT. Rom 10:13-18 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." I figure you capitalized the texts you desired answered thus, When do dead men (Eph 2:1) speak, when they receive new hearts, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh…. Yes, the Gospel and the gospel messenger is beautiful news to all those that are enabled to hear it (he that hath ears let him hear…,but not everyone has spiritual ears or else all would be saved?—see my question below for further). Does everyone who hears the gospel message get saved…NO….Who hath believed our report, no one until God puts within them His desire (how can? they are dead and need life, without the ennoblement of being born again they will never hear—Salvation is of the Lord, He is the Author and Finisher of our faith)…. Though Christ was in the world and preached to all in His day, did ALL get saved…No..only those that were ordained to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48). So thus your voice needs to go out into all the world (you do not who is called, predestined, elected, etc), but it does not mean (1) it will be heard by all (spiritually or effectually) (2) or even comprehended it since they do not have the mind of Christ (3) but all those that are ordained to eternal life will hear in God’s time according to His plan (Eph 1) Yes, Scripture affirms the need of PREDESTINATION otherwise why would God write about it? ---- Now, let me ask you a question: This is the third time this is posted and yet no answers??? 1. Did Christ die for all sins of all men? 2. Did Christ die for some sins of all men? 3. Did Christ die for all sins of some men? If Christ dies for (1) "all sins of all men" then why are any lost? After-all is not "unbelief" a sin? And if He died for the sin of "unbelief" how could any be lost--but some are aren't they! If Christ died for (2) "some sins of all men" then we do not have an atonement for "all sin" without exception and all are still in sin! Thus, Christ died for (3) "all sins of some men" --His elect that some according to His purpose and plan may be saved (Eph 1, Rom 8-11). |
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2 | Predestination: scriptures meaningless? | John | Pastor Glenn | 61275 | ||
JRdoc, You said:"If Christ dies for (1) "all sins of all men" then why are any lost? After-all is not "unbelief" a sin? And if He died for the sin of "unbelief" how could any be lost--but some are aren't they! " Unbelief is a CHOICE. By not believing in the name of the only begotten Son of God sinners choose to remain condemned: John 3:18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. God's plan of salvation by choice gives all men the same choice that Adam had: life or death This is why Jesus was able to say: John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[2] have eternal life. They had the choice to either look upon the bronze snake or continue to die of the snake bites that they had recieved: Numbers 21 9 And Moses made a (1) bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. Salvation by Choice: 1. Preaching (Always necessary) 2. Hearing (Those that are eventually saved may not respond at first.) 3. Believing (Our Choice) 4. ***Born Again*** a. Spiritual growth (now have a ear to hear deeper truths, more light given), b. Stagnation (remain baby), c. Back slide Salvation by Predestination God Chooses his Elect 1. Preaching (does not matter since God will bring the light through someone eventually.) 2. Hearing (they will respond the first time since they already have an ear to hear.) 3. Believing (Automatic since God has already chosen them.) 4. ***Born Again*** (Automatic since God has already chosen them.) a. Spiritual growth (now have a ear to hear deeper truths, more light given), b. Stagnation (not possible), c. Back slide (not possible) God Bless, Pastor Glenn |
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3 | Predestination: scriptures meaningless? | John | JRdoc | 61278 | ||
But, even in your theology "if it is a choice" it still must be a forgiven choice, or else you make salvation a "work" and not by grace alone. And this is what you explained and is what you believe, but not what the Scripture asserts. BTW, what about the ones that ALREADY died before they had the opportunity to LOOK upon the serpent....where was their choice. Once again you have not looked at the "compete" context. Salvation by Arminian Free-will Choice: Impossible (John 1:13) Salvation by Predestination The Correct order of salvation (abbreviated form) Effectual Calling - Divine Act Regeneration - Divine Act Repentance -Divine - Human Faith -Divine - Human Justification -Divine Sanctification -Divine Adoption -Divine Progressive Sanctification -Divine - Human Perseverance IN Holiness - Divine - Human Glorification -Divine |
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4 | Predestination: scriptures meaningless? | John | Pastor Glenn | 61285 | ||
JR doc, You wrote: "But, even in your theology "if it is a choice" it still must be a forgiven choice, or else you make salvation a "work" and not by grace alone. And this is what you explained and is what you believe, but not what the Scripture asserts. " What the scripture asserts: John 3:18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "...he who does not believe is condemned already..." If we make the choice to believe in the name of Christ, then we do not need to be forgiven for choosing unbelief: "He who believes in Him is not condemned..." You said:"Salvation by Arminian Free-will Choice: Impossible (John 1:13) " Put into context: John 1:12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: John 1:12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: God bless, Pastor Glenn |
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5 | Predestination: scriptures meaningless? | John | JRdoc | 61294 | ||
Pastor Glenn: You affirm that Christ died for ALL (without exception) the sin of ALL (without exception) men. This is the affirmation of Arminianism and yours as well as you stated and affirmed. Now, UNBELIEF is a sin. If Christ did not die for it than ALL are still in their sin. If Christ died for the sin of UNBELIEF for ALL MEN (without exception) then NONE (without exception) could ever be lost. This is UNIVERSALISM and this is what your doctrine affirms whether you like it or not. 1. Now this doctrine denies the so called free-will of man. After-all your doctrine affirms that the sin of UNBELIEF has been taken care of at Calvary for ALL men without exception and thus THE DECISION has been made. So please do not accuse Calvinists of doing that which you do to the glory of man. 2. Your doctrine of course is indefensible. The Scripture is clear that some go to hell—Judas, and others are good examples. Thus, once again the Scripture defeats your logic and does not support you claim(s). --- Now you quote --John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” –in your defense. See the very Scripture you assert is used against you. They are “condemned already,” thus Christ could not have died for ALL the SINS (without exception) of ALL MEN (without exception). The very Scripture you assert denies your doctrine! Who are the ones that believe? What does the Scripture say? Acts 13: 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. (still the need of preaching—though you assert Calvinists do not understand this) --- Now you say: “If we make the choice to believe in the name of Christ, then we do not need to be forgiven for choosing unbelief: “ So PAST UNBELIEF is not sin? Surely you jest. What ever is not of faith is sin is what the Scripture asserts. That is very poor Arminianism, but again it is what you affirm against Scripture! Of course here you are stuck and thus looking for a way out, but there is none… --- Then you assert: John 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” as your defense. As already explained one receives Christ by God (Hebrews says HE is the Author and Finisher of our faith) not by being “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man” (vs 13).How can one receive a gift when he is dead? Not until one is made alive may he obtain the gift of grace so freely given. |
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6 | Predestination: scriptures meaningless? | John | Pastor Glenn | 61300 | ||
JRdoc, You said: "You affirm that Christ died for ALL (without exception) the sin of ALL (without exception) men. This is the affirmation of Arminianism and yours as well as you stated and affirmed. Now, UNBELIEF is a sin. If Christ did not die for it than ALL are still in their sin. If Christ died for the sin of UNBELIEF for ALL MEN (without exception) then NONE (without exception) could ever be lost. This is UNIVERSALISM and this is what your doctrine affirms whether you like it or not. " Unbelief is not “a” sin, it is the sin “condition” of the flesh that we inherited from Adam: Romans 5:18Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in “condemnation”, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. That sin condition stays on the flesh forever: 1Cor 15: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. You said: "1. Now this doctrine denies the so called free-will of man. After-all your doctrine affirms that the sin of UNBELIEF has been taken care of at Calvary for ALL men without exception and thus THE DECISION has been made. So please do not accuse Calvinists of doing that which you do to the glory of man. " Now I say again: “If we make the choice to believe in the name of Christ, then we do not need to be forgiven for choosing unbelief: “ God bless, Pastor Glenn |
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7 | Predestination: scriptures meaningless? | John | JRdoc | 61316 | ||
YOU SAID: “Unbelief is not “a” sin, it is the sin “condition” of the flesh that we inherited from Adam” 1. Funny, but untrue. What in turn you have said is that NO ONE may be lost because UNBELIEF (which everyone has) is NOT SIN. Since it is not a sin (so you say) it does not need to be forgiven. Thus anyone who is a unbeliever goes to Heaven? Please…Get Real! 2. Next you assume that UNBELIEF is a condition of the “flesh” and not a “spiritual condition” Christ has a different opinion of UNBELIEF than you: Mat 13: 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their UNBELIEF. Mark 16: 14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their UNBELIEF and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen Paul has a different view of UNBELIEF than you: Rom 4: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through UNBELIEF; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Rom 11:20, 23 Well; because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:… 23 And they also, if they abide not still in UNBELIEF, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 1 Tim 1: 2 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in UNBELIEF. The writer of Hebrews has a different view of UNBELIEF than you: Heb 3:12, 18-19 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the living God…..18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF. Heb 4: 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of UNBELIEF . UNBELIEF is sin. UNBELIEF is UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and all unrighteousness is sin. --- THEN YOU SAY: “Now I say again: “If we make the choice to believe in the name of Christ, then we do not need to be forgiven for choosing unbelief:” 1. You make an assumption that you may make a choice without the Holy Spirit changing and converting and empowering to do so. Thus, you have a salvation of works, which is no salvation at all. Rom 11: 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 2. Next, you make the assumption that unbelief is not a sin, which is clearly disproven in Scripture (see above). May God give you mercy to see the truth. |
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8 | Predestination: scriptures meaningless? | John | Pastor Glenn | 61332 | ||
JRdoc, I said: "...unbelief is not "a" sin... Rom 5:18-21" You said: "1. Funny, but untrue. ..." You completely ignor the scripture. "...What in turn you have said is that NO ONE may be lost because UNBELIEF (which everyone has) is NOT SIN. ..." Everyone IS lost in the sin condition of the flesh: Psalm 51:5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. After we choose Christ we are born of the Spirit and can live in our new spirit nature by dying to the flesh. "...Since it is not a sin (so you say) it does not need to be forgiven. ..." Isaiah 55:6Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. 7Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. I am not going to pretend to understand all of God's ways: Isaiah 55:8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. However, the first Passover was a choice to put blood over the door posts. To look upon the bronze serpent was a choice. Noah chose to move with fear and build the Ark of Safety. All of these were types and shadows of Christ involving simple choices to believe God's warning. Salvation is still a gift. It is a lie to call it a "work": Romans 3:4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."[3:4 Psalm 51:4] "...Thus anyone who is a unbeliever goes to Heaven? Please…Get Real! " No, but the sin condition of the flesh leads to the choice of unbelief: Gal 5:19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[3] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders,[4] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. "2. Next you assume that UNBELIEF is a condition of the “flesh” and not a “spiritual condition” Actually, I barely said 3 sentences in the entire post. Most of it was quoting you or scripture. Unbelief IS a spiritual condition, as well as, a condition of the flesh. "Christ has a different opinion of UNBELIEF than you: Mat 13: 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their UNBELIEF. ..." This is my point, their unbelief was due to walking in the flesh. All of your scripture quotes show this same thing. Unbelief is the opposit of faith. Faith is ... the evidence of things not seen. Abraham chose to believe God (faith in something with no physical proof) and it was counted to him for righteousness. By your reasoning, the parable of the sower is therefore meaningless: Mat 13:18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. (Shouldn't matter, if he was predestined he'll understand one day before he dies) 20But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. (Shouldn't matter, if he was predestined he'll stop stumbling one day before he dies)22Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (Shouldn't matter, if he was predestined he'll become fruitful one day before he dies) 23But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." " May God give you mercy to see the truth. " I choose Jesus by faith. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the life. Don't worry though, by your reasoning I will come around if God has predestined me anyway. God Bless, Pastor Glenn |
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9 | Predestination: scriptures meaningless? | John | JRdoc | 61340 | ||
I will have to answer this in two posts:--length YOU SAID: "...unbelief is not "a" sin... Rom 5:18-21" and accused me of “completely ignoring the scripture.” I must apologize for not directly addressing your “particular” Scripture. I thought the other 7 or so verses revealed to you that UNBELIEF IS a SIN. While I would agree man is “totally depraved” and has a sin nature that can only be changed by re-birth (and until then he will never seek for God, neither can -Rom 3), this is not the meaning of the term UNBELIEF. So your proof text: Rom 5: 18-21 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience MANY were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: the free gift came upon all men unto justification (Are “ALL” without exception justified—again UNIVERSALISM). This cannot mean that all men will be saved; salvation is only for those who exercise the gift faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 1:16, 17; 3:22, 28; 4:5, 13). Like the word “many” in v. 15, Paul is using “all” with two different meanings for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in the O.T. (which he knew fluently). …..do I need to give you more examples of how the term “all” is used in Scripture? Again, CONTEXT! Look at: Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one MANY be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY. Paul uses the word “many” with two distinct meanings in v. 15, just as he did the word “all” in v. 18. He has already established that all men, without exception, bear the guilt of sin and are therefore subject to death (Rom 3). So the “many” who die must refer to all Adam’s descendants. CONTEXT, BTW I do not see the term UNBELIEF used? ---- YOU SAID: Everyone IS lost in the sin condition of the “flesh”: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. After we choose Christ we are born of the Spirit and can live in our new spirit nature by dying to the flesh. So you are saying that every sin (prior to salvation) is “physical” and not “spiritual”? The verse you quoted proves that everyone has a sin nature (thus the spiritual natural leads to the physical one and “both” sin or are in sin or have the nature of sin), but I DO NOT see where it says that “only the flesh sinneth” and not the spirit or soul of man? Why would the spirit need to be created “new” IF it had not sinned against God? Actually if you will look at vs 14 of Rom 5 (since this seems to be your favorite chapter) it disproves what you are asserting: Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Paul is saying even without the law, death was universal. All men from Adam to Moses were subject to death, not because of their sinful acts against the Mosaic law (which they did not yet have), but because of their own inherited sinful nature. |
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