Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | JRdoc | 61190 | ||
It was stated thus, "I would appreciate it if the resident Calvinists on the forum could either explain why the Arminian perspective decreases the sovereignty of God, or admit that the Arminian perspective of God's sovereignty is not necessarily less than that of the Calvinists." Arminianism makes man God. It makes God and puppet in the hands of ma's so-called free will. It is a evil of all evils. Calvinism looks at God's sovereignty as Holy and for His glory. So how do sovereignty and free-will relate: Here is a quote from A Layman's Systematic Theology, by Dr. Joseph R. Nally, copyright 2002: When a man chooses to sin he chooses to do it by his own will. When a man does not choose Christ he does so by his own will. When a man chooses salvation he chooses to do so by his own will. Man does have a will in both cases, but it is not “as free” as the Arminians like to preach it. A man is in a box. The box is completely enclosed. The box has no light in it. The box is sound proof. The box has no windows or doors. This man lives in “his” box. The man lives in total darkness. Nothing from the outside get in. Nothing inside gets out. Now in this box this man makes all his own decisions based on the knowledge of the things in “his” box. The man above is one who is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1). The man is blind to the things in the outside world (2 Cor 4:4). Unredeemed man loves darkness rather than light (John 1:4-9) for this is all he really knows, for this is all that is in his box. Though light appears all around his sin nature he will not comprehend it (John 1:5). As Christ demonstrated by His many healing miracles, man, because of his sin nature, is blind, deaf, crippled, speechless, diseased, and is even dead. Until God alone heals this inability of the soul of man he will remain in this condition. Man needs the Great Physician. God cannot in this be judged that He is unjust because He does not save them, for the man is free and is making his own decisions in his own box and he chooses not Christ: “He came unto his own, and his own received him not” (John 1:11). The natural man is in “his” box. Nothing comes in or goes out. His own sin has enclosed him. He is dead to all God has and makes his decision freely, based upon his own darkness, but will never freely choose Christ, for Christ is not in his box (Rom 3:11). But, God, in His sovereign grace, mercy, love, and purpose looks at the boxes of His elect from all eternity. God endures with His creatures in many things, but at a point in His sovereign timing He breaks open the box of His elect and allows His light to shine in the man’s box. The Holy Spirit has done a work in this man in the soul of his box. This man has been birthed into a new realm of understanding that he did not have before. He now sees something wonderful and irresistible in the light. Now he is irresistibly attracted to Christ. Because of this birth of grace the man is no longer blind, deaf, crippled, speechless, diseased, or even dead. He may now see the kingdom of God (for he is no longer blind), and hear the Gospel call (for he is no longer deaf), and walk to Calvary (for Calvary has already walked to him), he may now confess with his mouth the LORD Jesus (for he is no long dumb), he can now enter into the holiest of all (because he is no longer diseased), and he is now alive, (for by grace alone he has received life and is no longer dead in trespasses and sin). Light entered the box first. Now faith is in his box. Now faith enlightens and draws him. Yes, this man, as the other, is free to make a decision, but with the miracle that has just transpired his decision is now irresistibly enlightened: As the natural eyes are drawn irresistibly to the beautiful Aurora Borealis (or Northern Lights), the spiritual man is drawn irresistibly to the light of Christ (John 1:12-13, John 3:3). As the natural man’s hearing is drawn by the beautiful sounds of the breaking ocean waves, now the spiritual man irresistibly hears the spiritual waves of the Gospel call (Rom 10:9-10). As a natural bride walks down the isle to meet her beloved in holy matrimony, the spiritual bride is now drawn irresistibly towards Calvary, for see they have been engaged since before the foundations of the world (Eph 1:3-12; 5:21-33). As the natural man is drawn irresistibly to speak out loud about himself and what he owns (for he is full of pride; ), the spiritual man is drawn to speak about his Lord and what his Lord owns (for he is full of praise; Eph 1:13). As the natural diseased man is drawn to go to his physician for cure, the spiritual man sees that the Great Physician has already cured him, for he has given him the spiritual penicillin of grace and faith (Eph 2:8-10). |
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2 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | Sir Pent | 61200 | ||
This doesn't answer the question ............... Dear JRdoc, Welcome to the forum. I appreciate your interest in the question that I asked, however, your response simply describes what Calvinists believe in general. It does not describe why an Arminian viewpoint necessitates a lower view of the sovereignity of God. Let me restate my question, and perhaps you will be able to answer it better. ................................... We both believe that God is sovereign and all powerful. Therefore, He could have created beings (humans) such as you have just described. They were all completely corrupted after the fall of Adam, and completely incapable of desiring relationship with God. Therefore, they would never normally choose God and would all deserve Hell. Then God could, within that system, choose some of those beings as exceptions to that rule, and change their hearts in such a way that they had an irresistable desire to have a relationship with God. Therefore, they would choose God and would deserve heaven (only by God's grace of changing them, and providing a way to salvation through Jesus). Thus everyone gets what they deserve (at least in one sense) ................................... However, it is also possible that God being sovereign and all powerful could have created beings (humans) that were actually capable of either desiring a relationship with God or not desiring it. Their nature could be partially corrupted so that they have a tendancy to choose to reject God, but still have the ability to overcome that first instinct. Then some of them would choose to love God and would deserve heaven (only by God’s grace of providing a way to salvation through Jesus). But others would choose to reject God and His salvation and would deserve Hell. Thus everyone gets what they deserve (in a greater sense). ................................... So now to the original question. How does believing the second option to be true limit the sovereignity of God? Since God could have set it up either way, He is in complete control either way. For that matter, even assuming the Arminian perspective is correct, God could still change His mind at any point and remove the freedom to choose again. Although we don’t believe that God would ever do that, He could. I am not asking you to believe Arminianism is correct, I am simply trying to explain that it is also a possible explanation of the universe that keeps God’s soveriegnity intact. ................................... It seems to me that it is like a parent watching their child on a playground, but letting them choose whether to go down the little slide or the big slide. The parent is bigger and stronger, and could easily bar the child from one slide or the other. But it doesn’t make the parent any less big or less strong for them to allow the child pick either one. |
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3 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | JRdoc | 61241 | ||
YOUR PREMISE is faulty though. You state: However, it is also possible that God being sovereign and all powerful could have created beings (humans) that were actually capable of either desiring a relationship with God or not desiring it. Their nature could be partially corrupted so that they have a tendancy to choose to reject God, but still have the ability to overcome that first instinct. Then some of them would choose to love God and would deserve heaven (only by God’s grace of providing a way to salvation through Jesus). But others would choose to reject God and His salvation and would deserve Hell. Thus everyone gets what they deserve (in a greater sense). ---- We will just look at one of your phrases as the other revolve around them: Where does it say “that God being sovereign and all powerful could have created beings (humans) that were actually capable of either desiring a relationship with God or not desiring it.” Even you said could have, where is this in Scripture? What ability, capability, or desires does a dead man have? (Eph 2:1)--NONE. He is spiritual dead in trespasses and sin. The Scripture is clear “no man seeketh after God,” how many “no not one” (Rom 3:10-11). So even if you assertion is correct and one has ability, capability, or desire (which of course is not the case—John 1:13), they still would not seek after God and thus your case folds because the Scripture does not support your assumption. To assert otherwise would be to say there is some degree of righteousness in every man (something that was not corrupted), but “they are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Rom 3:12). The quoted example (in the beginning of the post) is very clear and it does address (1) the truth of Scripture, (2) yes, it is the Calvinistic belief against Arminianism, which is not supported with proper Scriptural exegesis. Now, let me ask you a question: 1. Did Christ die for all sins of all men? 2. Did Christ die for some sins of all men? 3. Did Christ die for all sins of some men? If Christ dies for (1) "all sins of all men" then why are any lost? After-all is not "unbelief" a sin? And if He died for the sin of "unbelief" how could any be lost--but some are aren't they! If Christ died for (2) "some sins of all men" then we do not have an atonement for "all sin" without exception and all are still in sin! Thus, Christ died for (3) "all sins of some men" --His elect that some according to His purpose and plan may be saved (Eph 1, Rom 8-11). |
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4 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | Sir Pent | 61259 | ||
You Did Not Answer The Question ................................... Dear JRdoc, I realize that you believe the second premise to be wrong. The second option is the way that the universe is perceived by an Arminian, which you are not. I am not asking you to believe that it is correct. Please don’t just keep on throwing out Bible verses that you think prove that position wrong. I am fully aware that there are many verses that would seem to support the Calvinist perspective while refuting the Arminian perspective. I know where you are coming from on that front. ................................... Now try to see where I am coming from. There are also a lot of scriptures that support the Arminian perspective while refuting the Calvinist one. I am not going to throw them out here becuase that has been done ad nausium here on the forum. Besides which, I am not at this time trying to convince anyone to believe either perspective. ................................... I am strictly interested in determining, if ASSUMING either perspective was correct, would it be possible for God to be sovereign. ................................... P.S. This doesn’t relate to the question we are discussing, but since you asked, I find (1) to be the most accurate statement in your question, but please don’t go trying to prove me wrong. Let’s stay on the sovereign topic :) |
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5 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | JRdoc | 61266 | ||
If man is sovereign in his choice than God is not God. Arminianism re-defines terms such as foreknowledge, election, calling, grace etc to be just mere speculations of God's desire and make salvation a work of man vs. the sole work of God. I do not assert that man does not have a will, but it is not the free-will the Arminian thinks..there is no Scriptural support for it. If I cannot use Scripture than I do not see where a conversation about this would be valuable as all truth is from THE text alone. I do not discuss the WHAT IF's of philosophy when the I AM of Scripture has already spoken to the point. I see no verses when correctly interpreted and in context that fit the Arminian scheme of Scripture. Since you believe that Christ died for ALL SIN for ALL MEN then you must be a universalist for ALL would need to be saved. UNBELIEF is a sin, and you say Christ died for it for everyone without exception. Yet the Scripture affirms that many are lost. Thus, Scripture does not back that view. |
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6 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | Sir Pent | 61272 | ||
Perhaps we're at an impass.............................. Dear JRdoc, I am dissapointed that you feel like we can’t continue our discussion. I am not asking you to stop using scripture, in fact, I encourage you to do so. I am only asking that you don’t use scripture to attack the assumption (Arminian perspective) because that has been done already elsewhere on the forum (and is currently happening as well, I might add). I would ask you to supply some scripture that would indicates that BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION BEING TRUE, would negate the sovereignity of God. If you are unable to put yourself in the other persons shoes, then this may be impossible for you. However, I have tried to state the Calvinist position from their perspective in a fair way, and would ask you to at least try to answer the question from a point of understanding (although not agreeing of course) the Arminian perspective. If you can’t do this then I would encourage you to at least read the thread that I am discussing this with John Reformer. We seem to be understanding each other better and perhaps you might learn something from reading that thread. ............................................................ P.S. I am not a universalist. I disagree with that perspective. |
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7 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | JRdoc | 61274 | ||
But, if the assumption is false (as it is) there is NO Scripture to support it. Yes, every verse when in context proves that God is sovereign in the Calvinistic viewpoint of the Scripture, show me one that is not? Why argue something that cannot be supported or is just a mere assumption. You are arguing WHAT IF's that DO NOT exist? What you are proposing mounts to a straw-man which is of not value...we then would be reducing the Scripture to "a" philosophy...this I am not willing to do. If you will state a Scripture I will either state the truth ot link you to a site that displays it (some explainations are too long to post here), but away from the Scripture I do not embark...that is a dark, dark road. |
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