Results 1 - 2 of 2
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | MrHappyface | 61334 | ||
But what of John 6:44 - 45? Jesus says "No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day". Okay, God must draw us out our boxes, as you call them, but what then of the following verse? "It is written in the Prophets: 'They will ALL be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." And boxes? IS each man in a box? I don't think so, God created Man as a corporate identity, he created Adam and Eve, and through them all sin entered the world, and we lost out corporateness. But through one man, Jesus Christ, our corporate nature is restored, when his people are brought to completeness, then again we will be living in complete harmony with each other and God. In the mean time, through Jesus, the word in our hearts, we are used by God to reach others. The fields are ripe for harvest but the labourers are few, not the fields are ripe for harvest but what does it matter anyway, cause they cannot be reached by any means. Every decision we make clearly affects people around us, to say otherwise is ludicrous. We are in relationship with these people, if our actions and decisions had no affect on them at all, we wouldn't still call it a relationship. in fact that is the very definition of relationship. How then, can we have a relationship with God without him allowing us to choose things? And why would he punish us for sins he made us commit? Back it up with scripture (and both sides of this debate can clearly do that), say what you like to me, but this is not something so difficult to understand it makes our heads swim, its something so obviously incorrect it makes our heads swim. I don't think God is changing things that happen as they happen, based on Man's decisions, God is outside of time, he created time, clearly he isn't running around going "oh no Oh no what will happen next". But just as I don't blame God for decisions he sees me making now, I don't blame him for decisions he sees me make in the future. God isn't a puppet in our hands through my view, he is a loving father who willingly allows us to make decisions. It doesn't mean he doesn't have the power to take over, it simply means he doesn't. |
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2 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | JRdoc | 61359 | ||
YOU SAID: “But what of John 6:44 - Well, YOU CAN NOT COME, until you are DRAWN. Look at the example of Lazarus, he did not come until called……. One can not go anywhere if he is dead, God first makes one alive to receive with meekness the engrafted word which is able to save his soul. --- YOU SAID: “Okay, God must draw us out our boxes, as you call them, but what then of the following verse? .. 'They will ALL be taught by God.' Yes, all will be taught, but can not ALL hear what is being taught. We are not speaking of “earthly words” or "earthly ears" here but spiritual words—He that hath ears, let him hear, thus implying some have not spiritual ear to hear with. --1 cor 1: 18 --- YOU SAID: “And boxes? IS each man in a box? I don't think so, God created Man as a corporate identity,.....” We are speaking of spiritual boxes here which is clear from the context. Each man is responsible and accountable for the decisions made in his own soul (or box). Though every box interrelates with several other boxes and some effects, as already described come upon all (for all have sinned), this in no way negates individual responsibility for individual sin. Every man must give an account. Not a “corporate account” but an individual one. When one person is saved NOT every person will be saved—its not corporate. YOU are simply speaking of UNIVERSALISM in clouded language. Corporate Theology—a new one not in the text book yet…or in the Scripture. ---- YOU SAID: “In the mean time, through Jesus, the word in our hearts, we are used by God to reach others. ... Every decision we make clearly affects people around us, to say otherwise is ludicrous.” I agree that everything around another affects and influences one another. What a wonderful design by our Creator who arranged all these things for His glory. But amazing differences are noted because different decisions will be made, though some come across the same words, phrases, incidents, etc. in this life. How can two identical twins (best example in this universe we have) sitting under the same hearing of God’s Holy Word react in different ways? One is effectually called the other is not. One box was opened the other was not. --- YOU SAID: “How then, can we have a relationship with God without him allowing us to choose things?” The example given “clearly” reveals that you have a choice. It does not violate your choice. You have so-called free-will, but the “spirit” (though your physical ears may hear the saving Gospel) of do not hear the Word of God “effectually” because it is dead in trespasses and sin. YOU SAID: “And why would he punish us for sins he made us commit? “ See the Thread that was just started by “Iamhapppy” it is explained more fully there. YOU SAID: “Back it up with scripture (and both sides of this debate can clearly do that), say what you like to me, but this is not something so difficult to understand it makes our heads swim, its something so obviously incorrect it makes our heads swim. “ 1 Cor 1: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. Sorry, I did not write the Word of God. This was God’s decision not mine. Please do not blame Calvinists for one’s lack of understanding. Ask God for Spiritual discernment. May He grant it according to His good pleasure. -- YOU SAID “I don't think God is changing things that happen as they happen, based on Man's decisions, God is outside of time, he created time, clearly he isn't running around going "oh no Oh no what will happen next". But just as I don't blame God for decisions he sees me making now, I don't blame him for decisions he sees me make in the future. God isn't a puppet in our hands through my view, he is a loving father who willingly allows us to make decisions. It doesn't mean he doesn't have the power to take over, it simply means he doesn't.” After salvation you are more free to make decisions and will make wiser decisions because more of God’s light is in your soul. True Calvinism does not negate that fact of the will of man it just negates that it is not as free as Arminians claim it to be. If you are really interested: Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by L. Boettner, Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther, Freedom of the Will by Jonathon Edwards, and the Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink would be good resources for you to study. They about with Scripture. After you are done with those three read Death of the Death of the Death of Christ by John Owen, again abounding with Scripture and the Greek is excellent—a book by the way that Arminians have never been able to refute. |
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