Results 1 - 10 of 10
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 162583 | ||
Hi atdcross, I agree with Tim's note re 1 Peter 4:19. This text specifically says that the suffering mentioned is according to God's will. I will agree with you that the best outcome of a painful experience is achieved when we simply yield ourselves to God, and not when we use it as an opportunity for rebellion against God. What I do not agree with is to discount the circumstance that God allows, or causes, by which we have that opportunity to learn faithfulness. The Bible says that Jesus was made complete through suffering. The wooden table top was made smooth through sanding and polishing. How else will you make the tabletop smooth? How else would Jesus be made complete? It was God's will for Jesus to be made complete and therefore it was God's will for Jesus to suffer. It pleased the Lord to bruise Him. Do not approach this with human logic. And make no mistake: Redemption came by the shedding of blood. By the death of Jesus. Isaiah tells us that "by His scourging we are healed". There was no redemptive quality to His being beaten and mocked, or His beard plucked out. This were the acts of evil men upon the Man Who would not disqualify Himself in spite of the evil attacks upon Him. Dying for us was the greatest act of love ever. There is joy in that. Jesus went to the cross "for the joy set before Him." The apostles "went their way rejoicing" because they had been found worthy to suffer for Jesus' sake. They did not go out saying "hit me". But when the beating came, they were more closely joined to the suffering, death, and resurrection of their Saviour, through a method that cannot be replaced with another. Nothing is like suffering execpt suffering. Pain is not the only effect of suffering. There was a man who spoke at my church a couple of months ago, who had been condemned to death for the sake of Christ in Saudi Arabia. He was imprisoned for 70 days, and tortured brutally every one of those days. They were determined to execute him by that daily torture. He was released due to pressure on the government, from the US, and others. His testinomy was by far the most powerful I have ever heard, and will remain with me. It boiled down to this: With every day that they would destroy even more of his "clay vessel", it was the "treasure within" that was revealed. And that is one purpose of suffering. Corrie Ten Boom, whom I also had the extreme priviledge of hearing her speak, was given this message to give to us all, regarding their suffering at the hands of Nazi Germany: "you must tell them what we have learned here. We must tell them that there is no pit so deep that He is not deeper still. They will listen to us, Corrie, because we have been here." And because of her experiences she had a global impact on this generation. These things are not to be taken lightly. Why does God choose suffering for us? I don't know. I have been blessed to not have had a broken bone, but I know many who have, and they pretty much agree - setting that broken bone can hurt! And we, as a race of people, are broken. That may be the reason. Love in Christ, Mark |
||||||
2 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162820 | ||
Mark, please see my response to Tim. That God allows suffering, I can agree. I cannot agree that God causes suffering, at least, not to believers. That is not to say suffering is not a result of God's actions or that believers never suffer. I agree, “Jesus was made complete through suffering,” however, that is not necessarily the case for believers. They can choose to rebel. Regarding your analogy with the tabletop: (1) God would rather we learn by just obeying his word. (2) However, there is no disagreement that our state as fallen may require “sanding”. (3) Again, Jesus’ suffering can only be taken so far as an example. It was God’s specific purpose for him to be a sacrifice for sin and, therefore, suffer and die (John 6:38; Heb 10:7-10). I have already discussed Isa 53:10. Again, I am not denying a “theology of suffering” or that believers never experience it. I do deny that suffering itself is God’s will and intention for his people. Regarding the man “imprisoned for 70 days”, if, as it is here asserted that suffering itself is God’s will, then he would now be out of God will. Ten Boom is no lightweight! But still, her experience does not mean that it was God who wanted and intended for her to suffer. Under the circumstances, if God wanted her to be a witness in those terrible times (and I believe he did), then she would have to go through the suffering. But I think God placed her there, not to suffer per se, but to be a witness; in spite of suffering she needed to go through it in order to fulfill her commission by God. A possible reason why God choose suffering – to break us – was because we are already broken? He wants to break even more what is already broken (cf. Isa 42:3)? |
||||||
3 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 162822 | ||
Hi atdcross, I have only a couple of more questions for you. Consider the passage: Heb 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." What do you think of the discipline of the Lord? Would we tend more to think of it as pleasure, or as suffering? My other question is this: Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, This verse tells us that God works all things after the counsel of His own will. Do you think that all things means all things, including those things that we call suffering? Love in Christ, Mark |
||||||
4 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162839 | ||
I missed responding to Heb 12:6 - A masochistic Christian may find it pleasurable. I do not. However, it must be viewed within it’s context, which is the “struggle against sin” (v.4) and sin involving the sins of others, persecution (v.3). Such suffering is to be taken as a given (John 16:33; 1 Pet 4:12). As such, I think, what is dealt with here is specifically persecution, which, as I have stated, is a given. Also, see the previous response I made on this verse (somewhere on this thread). |
||||||
5 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 162840 | ||
Hi atdcross, Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. Heb 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Persecution is the harsh treatment we receive from others because we follow Jesus. This discipline is what we receive from the hand of God our Father, to train us away from doing wrong. I don't know how this passage can be any more clear than it already is. He disciplines us. It seems sorrowful, but is for our betterment. Love in Christ, Mark |
||||||
6 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162846 | ||
Hi Mark “Lightning”. These responses are made too quick for me! I can agree with what your differentiation between "persecution” and “discipline." Sometimes, they may intersect. The book, "the Heavenly Man," is a good example of that intersection. I thought I gave a response regarding Hebrews 12 that was pertinent but I can’t find it; must have done it in another galaxy. Anyway…the context of Hebrews 12 seems to be, in particular, persecution; and with that in mind, the discipline has to do with the arrangement of the Christian life in conformity to Jesus’ response to the “struggle against sin” (v.3). The believers are called to “endure” the persecution and, in this respect are they commanded to “endure hardship as discipline”; that is, to use the persecution as a means of conforming oneself into the character and conduct of Jesus Christ. V.10 is giving us an analogy of this discipline but if we take it too far, it could seem like it is discipline for wrongdoing, which I do not think is the case here. It is discipline imposed because the believer’s trust God and are obedient to him. |
||||||
7 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 162849 | ||
Hi atdcross, In Hebrew 12 vs. 5 the writer changes focus from persecution to discipline. Call to lay aside encumbrances and sin: 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Jesus is our example, having endured all: Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. His example of enduring persecution Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. The example refined to what it cost Jesus: Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Here the writer narrows the focus to what it cost Jesus, and away from where the suffering came from. The exhortation to sons: Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. That, and this. The writer brings in a second element. Before the "and", the writer is speaking of how we must put off our sin. We have not resisted against our sin as hard as Jesus persisted in the face of His persecution. After the "and", the writer now brings in a new thought. Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? You must resist against sin. The Lord is your Father, and will disciple you as needed. I maintain that this passage is not about persecution, although an example that involves persecution is used. It is about the setting aside of sin, and what your part is, and what God's part is. Love in Christ, mark |
||||||
8 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | DocTrinsograce | 162850 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. (Hebrews 12:6) This is an example of synonymous parallelism, which we shouldn't find unusual in a book addressed to Hebrews. I've heard it said that chastening is rooted in the more emotional or mental discipline, whereas scourging refers to discipline that is meted out in the form of physical maladies. Had you ever heard that before? I'm unsure where it originated. The silence on the subject tends to make me think it is rooted in someone's imagination rather than the intent of the writer of Hebrews himself. Albert Barnes writes on this verse stating, "This is also a quotation from Proverbs 3. It means that it is a universal rule that God sends trials on those whom He truly loves. It does not, of course, mean that He sends chastisement which is not deserved; or that He sends it 'for the mere purpose' of inflicting pain. That cannot be. But it means that by His chastisements He shows that He has a paternal care for us. He does not treat us with neglect and unconcern, as a father often does his illegitimate child." Nevertheless, it troubles me to hear in some circles that sickness or "misfortune" is rooted in some sort of spiritual defect. God forbid that we place that kind of guilt on people! It is clearly not warranted by Scripture. Indeed, it would appear quite the contrary from this passage: if everything is going well, then perhaps it is time to worry about your relationship with the Father! In Him, Doc PS My dear wife was previously married. Her husband died of a genetically inherited disease of the liver. After his funeral her pastor told her that she had been widowed because she lacked the appropriate amount of faith for her husband to have been healed. What rubbish is touted these days, and in such ignorance of the Word! What needless doubt and fear is sown! |
||||||
9 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 162851 | ||
Hi Doc, Yes, Hebrews is a rather Hebrew book! ;-) I just don't think that any one of us is qualified to say of another, and oftentimes not even of ourselves, why we suffer, of why we don't. I expect a lot of surprise in heaven. There is an interesting parallel in James 5, "in anyone afflicted? He must pray. Is anyone sick? Let them call for the elders to pray for them" something like that. Disease is part of the curse, and I'm not saying that the Lord doesn't use it, but the kind of thing like you describe I find reprehensible (sp?), to tell the greiving widow he died because you didn't have faith???!!! My brother, have a great weekend, and I hope you are feeling better soon. I shall try to have great faith in your behalf! ;-) Love in Christ, Mark |
||||||
10 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | DocTrinsograce | 162865 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, Thank you... you have a great weekend too. I trust you brother... but I shall trust the Lord Himself to give you the faith as He has seen fit! ;-) In Him, Doc |
||||||