Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | DocTrinsograce | 162316 | ||
Dear Atdcross... So you deem that believers that are sick or raped are "not walking right" with God? In Him. Doc |
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2 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162340 | ||
Hello Doc, Not necessarily. The issue of suffering is more complicated than my answer may have, unfortunately, suggested. Let me just say that, in general, it was never God's will that mankind suffers. I do not think it is a Biblical concept to say that God desires or wills this or that sickness upon someone or this or that person to be raped (Jer 29:11 KJV; Ps 91; 103:1-6; 3 Jn 2-4). Suffering, in general, is the result of man's fallenness. Believer's may suffer specifically because they are walking right with God. Hostile forces are against the gospel. It is not because God wills or desires believers to suffer. God desires believers to maintain faithfulness to Christ regardless of the hostility and maybe even moreso because of it. Jesus said we will have tribulation in this world but He does not say it is God's will that such tribulation should come (Jn 7:7; 16:33). There is suffering due to the natural results of sin or divine judgment against sin. With respect to the former, God would still rather we not suffer but the choice is the believer's. It's not like you can jump out the window and change your mind. In the case of divine judgment, although it may be necessary, again, it is something God would rather not do (Ezekiel 18:30-32; 33:11). |
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3 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 162344 | ||
Hi atdcross, (If I may jump in here) :-) What do you think of what Peter wrote: 1 Pet 4:19 "Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right." Peter had a lot to say about suffering. Jesus suffered, leaving us an example, that we should follow in His footsteps - suffering. (1 Peter 2) Hebrews also tells us that Jesus was made complete through suffering (Heb 2:10). Jesus learned obedience from the things which He suffered (Heb 5:8). Remember, not everything Jesus suffered was specifically required for our redemption. He needed to only die. Much of what He suffered was simply because He allowed Himself to be victimized by evil men, so that He could fulfill His primary purpose. Philippians 1:29 counts suffering for Christ's sake a priviledge. Paul, in Phil. 3:10, seeks the fellowship of Jesus' suffering: "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;" In Isaiah we are told: Is 53:10 "But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief;" There is work that must be done, that can only be done through suffering. This is why James says "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials," (James 1:2). Differing kinds of trials. Some will involve suffering. Count them as joy, my brothers and sisters, for our suffering shows us that God is still working in our lives, He is not done with us. There is a great work He is doing in each of us, and the chisel sometimes hurts, but unless He removes the dross, how shall His masterpiece be revealled? Just some thoughts . . . Love in Christ, Mark |
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4 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162580 | ||
Hi Mark, 1 Pet 4:19 – It is “according to the will of God,” not that they suffer but that they go through the suffering in a godly manner (cf. v.12-16). 1 Pet 2 – Again, is it said the suffering itself is commendable or is it how one endures the suffering that is commendable? The example that Jesus left us was not merely that he suffered but that he remained faithful to God despite it (cf. v.22). Heb 2:10 - Jesus was made “perfect through suffering” only because of how he responded to it (cf. v.13). Note, also, he is made perfect “through” suffering and not “because” of it. Heb 5:8 - Jesus did learn obedience by what he suffered. But, yet again, his it was specifically to suffer on our behalf. However, suffering can either draw a person towards or away from God. There is no virtue in suffering itself. There is virtue on how one thinks and acts through suffering. I think it was Augustine who said something to the effect that it is not martyrdom that makes the martyr but the reason for which he is killed. You said, “Remember, not everything Jesus suffered was specifically required for our redemption,” etc. The suffering of Christ is unique. God sent Christ specifically to be a bloody victim in order to redeem man. Everything suffered was required. In this respect, we cannot follow His example. In any case, Jesus’ suffering does not necessarily mean suffering is something God intended for all believers or anyone else. Phil 1:29 - Note that the apostle is speaking within the context of conduct (v.27), struggle (v.30), and believing (v.29a). Conducting ourselves “in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ” through all that opposes faith and the gospel is what, I believe, the apostle is stressing and not suffering per se. There is no argument that suffering for Christ is a privilege, However, how sane would you consider one to be who went looking to suffer yelling, “Here! Here! Kick me! Hit Me! I’m a Christian”? I do not think the persecuted brothers and sisters in China or North Korea do this. Suffering for Christ is a privilege but not merely because a believer suffers but because it is for whom he suffers. Phil. 3:10 – In the context of considering everything as loss (v.7-8) Paul desires to share in Christ’s sufferings (cf. 2:7a). Also, Paul is not stressing a desire to suffer per se but a desire to know Christ by experiencing that power that raised him from the dead, which can only come through our own self-emptying and the godly endurance, even if it be to the point of physical death, such emptying demands. He did not seek or desire suffering; he sought the person and power of Christ to live in him (Gal 2:20) at whatever cost. Is 53:10 - Again, the suffering of Christ is unique and will never be repeated by anyone. However, can it be imagined that the Father was joyful to see His only Son suffer? If the death of his saints grieves God (Ps 116:15 Tanakh), how much more does the death of his only Son? James 1:2 – James is encouraging us to godly endurance through suffering; nowhere does he say God intended them to suffer. He does suggest that God is using the difficulties to test if one’s faith is genuine. Suffering in itself will not produce the qualities James enumerates. It depends on the person trusting God. The “chisel” that forms one’s faith is the same “chisel” that can break another’s. If the work needing to be accomplished can only be done through suffering, it is not because God intended it but because, under the circumstances, God permits it. As I read the Bible, I am of the view that God would rather not use the “chisel” but would rather we simply believe and obey through faith in his goodness. However, if one is really to believe that God’s intention is to teach his children through suffering, it needs asking, what lesson does a child learn by being raped? What would we think of the character of a father who brutally beat their child to a bloody pulp to correct them? There seem to me to be only one lesson learned through suffering and that is it hurts. The Bible says it is divine kindness, not suffering, that leads to repentance (Rom 2:4). I am not denying that suffering, under the present circumstances, has no place. It does when necessary where no other devices of kindness work. But then, that is suffering used in divine judgment (Rom 10:22). |
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5 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | Morant61 | 162581 | ||
Greetings Adtcross! You wrote concerning 1 Peter 4:19: "1 Pet 4:19 – It is “according to the will of God,” not that they suffer but that they go through the suffering in a godly manner (cf. v.12-16)." Yet, that is not what 1 Peter 4:19 actually says. It says, "...those who suffer according to God's will..."! It is the suffering itself that is according to God's will in this verse. Certainly, there is a right way and a wrong way to respond to suffering, but let's not mistake what the verse actually says. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 162818 | ||
Hi Brother Tim, I agree that is what Peter wrote, however, that suffering itself is God’s will was not what, I believe, Peter meant by it; at least, not when the context is taken into consideration. None of the verses hint that God is the cause of their suffering or that he purposely intended it. Suffering, as Peter says, is the inevitable outcome of the Christian life because of worldly opposition; therefore, they should not be surprised when it occurs as if godliness assured peace and comfort (Gal 4:29; 2 Tim 3:12). Note vss.15-16. If there is to be suffering, he tells them it should be for doing right and not for doing wrong. This is “suffering according to the will of God,” when we suffer because we are doing what is right. To suffer in and of itself is not God’s will. If it were, then even the one who suffers for doing wrong would be “suffering according to the will of God” because he suffers, which would, evidently, make Peter’s exhortation in vs.15 meaningless. If it is God who causes and intends suffering, why pray for the sick to be healed? Don’t we want “God’s will” for the person”? Why counsel a woman who gets beaten everyday by her husband to separate from him? Why have an abusive husband arrested for that matter? When a child is being raped, he/she is “suffering according to God’s will.” Being raped, therefore, was the best thing that can happen to that child, is it not? I am only trying to follow the line of reasoning that would follow your objection. If suffering itself is God’s will, any believer who suffers for whatever reasons, wrong or right, is in God’s will; and any believer not suffering or who never experienced suffering is out of God’s will. |
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7 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | Morant61 | 162823 | ||
Greetings Atdcross! Thanks for the response my friend! :-) You raise many points, and I will try to address them. 1) God's will and suffering: There seem to be two mistakes that you are making with this text. a) First of all, you are denying the clear statement of Peter that the suffering in 1 Peter is a direct result of the will of God. No matter what our personal feelings on this subject may be, God's Word is quite clear. Peter did not say, 'those who suffer according to the will of men'. He said, 'those who suffer according to the will of God'. b) Secondly, you then take the word 'suffer' from it's context and make it refer to 'all suffering'. The text does not say that 'all suffering' is a result of God's will. The suffering mentioned in 1 Peter seems to be focused mostly upon the way someone is treated because one is a Christian and trying to live righteously. One cannot take Peter statement to mean that every act that brings suffering is a direct result of God's will. In fact, 1 Peter 3:17 makes it clear that not all suffering is a result of God's will. My original point to you was simply that 1 Peter 4:19 does tie some suffering to God's will, while you had stated that it is not God's will that they suffer. Yet, Phil. 1:29 explicitly states that suffering for Christ is a gift from God. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | atdcross | 163064 | ||
I think I already answered why I disagree with the above interpretation; cf. #162818. It seems you are allowing the verse to interpret itself without any consideration as to the context, which I still contend is persecution, cf. vs.12ff. Adam Clarke seems to express what I mean better than I can when he says, “A man suffers according to the will of God who suffers for righteousness' sake…” To suffer…period…is not the will of God. However, to maintain our witness to the gospel despite the persecution, is suffering according to the will of God. This is not man’s way of willing our suffering but it is God’s way. You said, that I “take the word 'suffer' from it's context and make it refer to 'all suffering'. The text does not say that 'all suffering' is a result of God's will...” If I gave you that impression, in relation to the text in question, I stand corrected. This verse has persecution in view and not all types of suffering. However, I still maintain on the basis of other Bible verses, that it is not God’s will that believer’s suffer any form of suffering; at least, not for sufferings sake. I can go further to say that it is not God’s intention that anyone suffer but, things being as they are, the infliction or allowing of suffering may be necessary. 1 Peter 4:19 – I think the suffering involved here has particular reference to any form of suffering endured because of one’s obedience to God. It discounts any suffering for doing what is wrong as suffering that is according to God’s will; and it does not have any reference at all to such sufferings as, for example, being sick or raped. Yet, Phil. 1:29 – With the privilege of believing in Christ and receiving all the benefits that accrue from grace, it is also a privilege to suffer for Christ – equivalent to suffering for righteousness sake. It is not to suffer itself that is “the gift”, but “to suffer for him” that is the gift. Anyone can suffer. It is what one suffers for that gives it value or meaning. |
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9 | Suffering and God's providence | Bible general Archive 3 | DocTrinsograce | 163073 | ||
Dear Atdcross, The tenacity with which you hold your view is nothing if not remarkable. Would you, please, offer a Scripture passage or two on which this doctrine might be supported? In Him, Doc |
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