Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68542 | ||
Dear Retxar, You asked: " Does any verse in the bible say wine that contains intoxicationg alcohol is good for anything other than medicinal purposes?" The answer is yes: Ps 104:15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart. Evidently Jesus did not condemn wine, for He said: Luke 5:39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough." If He had been referring to grape juice He would not have said "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new...". Who wants old grape juice? On the other hand win that is old (aged) is generally to be preferred over new (not aged). It is not my desire to promote drinking of alcoholic beveridges among christians. I am simply defending one's God given right to enjoy a glass of beer or wine without being accused of breaking a commandment. But if you can prove (from the Scripture) that even the moderate use of wine is a sin, then I must repent and obey. Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. If I were in your company of a brother and knew that He considered drinking to be sinful, I would refrain from doing so in his presence. I would not want my liberty in Christ to be the reason of his stumbling. But note! Paul does not forbid drinking; he does not say that the drinker might stumble, but that the brother might stumble. If you believe drinking to be a sin and you drink, then you have sinned. You have stumbled. I would not want to be a cause of that. I, on the other hand, am conviced that it is not a sin, therefore my drinking is not a sin. It's up to you to prove that it is a sin. So show me your proof texts and we can discuss them. God Bless, John |
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2 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | retxar | 68657 | ||
John, Thanks for answering my question bro. I guess I was looking for a verse that spoke of the actual consumption of alcohol being a good thing, rather than what the wine was used as to represent as being a good thing tho. Wine, after all, represents the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, so of coarse that is a good thing! I was not clear on what I meant, so thank you for the verses you provided. Let me comment on the Luke reference you gave: You said: “Evidently Jesus did not condemn wine, for He said: Luke 5:39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.” This has nothing to do with whether Jesus approved of did not approve of the consumption of alcoholic wine. Just because He used it in His illustration does not say anything in anyway concerning the matter. He used the illustration of old wine/new wine to drive home the point of the parables He was teaching. The message He was preaching was that a new work in the Spirit (new wine) would not work in the hearts of those who were hung up on the traditions of men (old wine shins). The old wine represented the traditions they were hung up on. The new wine represented the new work that Jesus wanted to do in their life. Jesus said “The old is good enough” to tell us that some will chose the traditions of men over the new work of the Spirit that God wants to do in their heart, because they automatically assume (falsely) that the old has to be better. The church even has a song they sing that confirms what Jesus was talking about. It’s called, “Give me that old time religion, it’s good enough for me!” So, unless you have a better take on this passage than me, it has nothing to do with Jesus’s opinion of the evils/virtues of alcohol, only the hearts of men. I guess the only other question I had to ask was the question Tim has already asked you concerning the biblical definition of “not much” wine. How could anyone possible know where that line is unless they had crossed it at least once? I will review you response to Tim more thoroughly, but a, “well he just knows”, does not seem quite right to me. This seems like it might work for an experienced person who has consumed “not much” wine for a while, but I don’t see how this is going to work with those who want to drink and are just starting out. Seems to me he would have to do quite a bit of drinking before he got the hang of it. And to avoid sin he would have to work his way up to that line, instead of working his way back, as is usually the case. As I said, I will study your response further. Anyway, John, thanks for bringing Rom14 into this discussion. Where I live, there is no way around the fact that alcohol consumption by a Christian will offend both believer and non-believer alike, so Rom14 has to be a consideration to anyone, regardless which side of the issue one takes. As I have already said, I will not be dogmatic about this, and will not judge you or anyone else concerning this. I have spoken here as I would plead to those in my own family concerning the issue of alcohol consumption, so forgive me if I have seemed judgmental in anyway. This issue, as you said, is indeed one of individual choice, I just see no good that can come out of consuming alcohol, and see much harm that can, and does, result from it. The issue of our obligation as kings and priest by Jesus is something I would like you to consider, as this has not been addressed by you or anyone else.. “Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.” (Rom 14:19) retxar |
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3 | making wine.Did Jesus make a mistake. | Bible general Archive 1 | inmyheart | 68668 | ||
retxar, Your insight to this thread has clearly answered some old questions of "to drink or not to drink". I have included a small portion from my notes on this topic: The word, "wine" in the Bible is an generic term. Sometimes it means fresh grape juice, other times it means alcoholic drinks. The context always shows when "wine" refers to Alcoholic drinks. How does it do that? For example, in Genesis chapter 9, God shows Noah's experience with wine. God shows that Noah "drank of the wine, and was drunken", showing the bad effects of the wine and the results of his drinking it. The context will always show if it is wine by the warnings or results that are listed by the Lord. A. Wine - fruit of the vine. Deut. 11:4; 2 Chr. 31:5; Neh. 13:15; Pr. 3:10; Isa. 16:10, 65:8; 1 Tim 5:23. All of these verses show that the context shows wine is grape juice. Christians often use 1 Tim. 5:23 as an excuse to drink. Paul was advising Timothy to drink GRAPE JUICE to help his troublesome stomach. Clearly, Timothy had stomach problems. Any Doctor will tell you a person with stomach trouble needs to avoid alcohol; it will make it worse. Would Paul want to hurt him? or make him violate Scriptures? B. Wine - alcoholic drinks. In the following verses, a partial list, we will see something interesting. Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." We notice the word "deceived" in this verse. Wine is deceptive; but how? In the very way that people advocate today, that drinking a little bit will not hurt. Everyone readily admits that drinking too much is bad; even the alcohol companies tell us not to drink and drive, but they advocate that "a little bit won't hurt!" This is deceptive. How? No one knows how much is a little bit for each person. Each person is different. Even the "experts" differ on how much is a "little bit". When a person drinks, the alcohol causes them to make rather bad decisions, do things that they would not sober. In this way, it is deceptive. It makes you think you are making good choices when you are not. Drinking and Driving is not a good choice, but many people do. Noah is an example of this. Would he normally be laying in his tent naked? No. A person in a tent keeps their clothes on- who knows who will walk in? Noah got drunk, uncovered himself (no doubt because he was hot), and the rest is history. Wine deceives us into doing foolish things; therefore it says "whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 23:29-32 "Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? "They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine." "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright." "At the last it biteth like an serpent, and stingeth like an adder." Clearly, from these verses, this is alcoholic wine. Grape Juice does not cause woe, sorrow, contentions (fighting), babbling, imagined slights, or red eyes. Alcohol does. All of us know someone who has lost family or friends due to drinking through liver damage, drunk drivers, alcohol poisoning. Alcoholic has brought more untold sorrow and grief than all the wars in the world. Clearly, the context here is alcoholic wine, and God warns against it! |
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4 | word for wine in the original text? | Bible general Archive 1 | romans | 68670 | ||
Dear Retxar, This is an interesting note/view. But just a follow-up question on your view. In the original text (on my knowledge, Hebrew for OT; Greek for NT), did it use different word for WINE "to refer to grape juice" and "to refer to alcoholic drink?" Anyone can answer my query, please don't hesitate. |
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5 | word for wine in the original text? | Bible general Archive 1 | inmyheart | 68674 | ||
You responded to retxar, however here is the info you asked for. Jesus and His disciples were invited to a wedding (John 2:1-11.) During this wedding, the grape juice ran out, so Jesus changed about 600 litres (130 gallons) of water into fresh grape juice. In the original Greek, these verses use the word oinos, meaning either alcohol or fresh grape juice. But, "Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in...drunkenness... But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts." (Romans 13:13-14) Surely Jesus did not make any provision for the flesh, to fulfil its lusts. Surely what He made was grape juice. God bless |
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6 | word for wine in the original text? | Bible general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 68746 | ||
Dear Inmyheart, Following your reasoning on using context to determine the alcoholic content of wine, I offer the following two verses. Gen 9:21 "He drank of the wine and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent." Alcoholic. Gen 14:18 "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High." Non-Alcoholic. A simple formula, but does it work? I have my doubts. The Hebrew word for "wine" is "yayin" which from an unused root meaning to effervesce. Webster's defines effervesce as 1. To be in a state of natural ebullition; to bubble and hiss, as fermenting liquors, or any fluid, when some part escapes in a gaseous form. Grape Juice does not go through this type of process (at least not to my knowledge). This is the reason for my first doubt. My second doubt arises from the difficulty that would arise in a society from using the same word to describe two VERY different beveridges. If one uses his imagination a bit, they must concede that your theory (I say theory, because it is yet to be proven as fact) has a serious flaw! Mom says to young Jonah "did you give your little sister the bottle of wine like I told you to?" Think about it. My third doubt arises from the reaction of the headwaiter in John 2 who exclaims "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now." Somehow I can't see anyone getting excited about grape juice (except Mr. Welch). Was the host so poor he had to offer only rotton grape juice? Afterall the guy did have servants as well as a headwaiter. But this is just a thought that troubles me. Perhaps you can dispel my doubt's by addressing them with your evidence. God Bless, John |
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7 | word for wine in the original text? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 68790 | ||
Is. 16:10 uses the word to refer to the juice in the press. These are just a few examples where the context clearly indicates that the word can refer to something other than alcohol. Greetings John! It amazes me that the Forum is still debating whether or not some words translated as 'wine' could be unfermented! All we have to do is look at the verses as see that sometimes they clear are not refering to alcohol. Here are some examples using the word 'yayin' which you referenced in your previous post. Clearly, it can refer to a fermented beverage, but it also can refer to other things as well. Consider: 1) Jer. 40:10 - "I myself will stay at Mizpah to represent you before the Babylonians who come to us, but you are to harvest the wine, summer fruit and oil, and put them in your storage jars, and live in the towns you have taken over.?" Here the word refers to that which is harvested and then placed in jars. At the time it is harvested, it is still in grape form and is not fermented. 2) Num. 6:4 - "As long as he is a Nazirite, he must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins." Here the word 'yayin' refers to the actual grape vine. 3) Is. 16:10 - "Joy and gladness are taken away from the orchards; no one sings or shouts in the vineyards; no one treads out wine at the presses, for I have put an end to the shouting." Here, 'yayin' refer to the grapes being pressed at the vineyard. These are just a couple of quick examples to show that some words do have more than one meaning. If you look up the word studies I have posted you will see that there are a number of words translated as 'wine'. Some are always fermented, some are never fermented, and some can be either. My point is not to argue whether we should drink or not, my point is simply to finally get people to realize that the words translated as 'wine' in the Bible DON'T always refer to alcohol. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | word for wine in the original text? | Bible general Archive 1 | romans | 68795 | ||
Dear Tim Moran, Thanks for that explicit explanation on the issue involved. It is very helpful and well founded. But one thing though, I was surprised by your opening statement "I was amazed ..." I think there are people (just like me) who is not as knowledgeable as you in the Bible. I think we (Christians) should be gracious to people like me who ask questions (no matter how silly it seems to be to your/our views but for sure not to the one asking a question) and search for truth. Moreover, we should be thankful that Christians are keen in studying and knowing the truth; Christians should have an attitude of researching things not just agree and believe easily. KNOW WHAT YOU BELIEVE. Know why you agree or disagree - not just because somebody said it. Nothing personal, this is just a side comment on the issue of extending grace and understanding to Christians who are in searching of the truth. Personally, your note in this particular issue enlightens me. Thanks so much again. Brother in Christ, Romans |
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9 | word for wine in the original text? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 68797 | ||
Greetings Romans! Welcome to the forum! I didn't mean to sound offensive. It's just that this issue has been discussed many times on this forum, and I know that I have personally posted several extensive word studies which demonstrate that the words translated as 'wine' don't always refer to an alcoholic beverage. The reason I used the word 'amazed' is that in spite of the word studies, various posts still try to make the point that 'the Bible said wine, so it must be wine' (where wine always means alcohol). Various posts also continue to poke fun at the view that some of the words translated as 'wine' can refer to grape juice. What I have tried to do is show from Scripture that some of these words can refer to the vine, the grapes, raisins, fresh juice, fermented juice, or even harder liquors. Anyway, enough beating of a dead horse! :-) Again, welcome to the forum! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | word for wine in the original text? | Bible general Archive 1 | romans | 68798 | ||
Dear Tim Moran, Thanks. Yes, I'm very new to this forum, I just joined yesterday. I am interested to the "word study" you posted as you had mentioned. I noticed in the Q and A site that there had a been a lot of things discussed. For me to look for your previous post would take sometime. If it's possible and not a bother to you, could I have a copy of it; could you post it again in the forum or would you like a personal email of mine? If not possible, I will try to locate in the forum site. Thanks much again. Brother in Christ, Roman |
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11 | word for wine in the original text? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 68801 | ||
Greetings Roman! If you click on the 'search' option on the left hand side of the screen, and then enter 'Morant61' as the screen name to search for and enter 'yayin' as the word to search for, you will find the word studies I referred to in my previous post. I believe that you will enjoy the forum. I have not been here the longest, but I am one of the old-timers! :-) I made my first post on April 25, 2001 and have stuck around ever since. The part I enjoy as much as anything else is the friendships which have formed in my time on the forum. There are many on the forum who e-mail me, and vice versa, on a regular basis. I hope that your time here will be profitable and rewarding for both you and us! :-) p.s. - If you have any problems with the search, please let me know! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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