Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How Does Baptism Save? | 1 Pet 3:21 | disciplerami | 78688 | ||
Dear Joe, I disagree, of course. You write: "But the key term you brought up is that men ought to have that faith. Those who will be in hell do not possess a "faith without obedience" or a "faith that is about to obey." They possess no trust at all in the Jesus of the Bible." I disagree. Romans 1 says they do. On the basis of what God has revealed to all men they may be judged by God. They are without excuse. Faith that has not obeyed is a dead faith. We know that Abraham was not justified until his belief was obedient. Good day to you, Disciplerami |
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2 | How Does Baptism Save? | 1 Pet 3:21 | Reformer Joe | 78690 | ||
Does Romans 1 say that all men have faith in Jesus Christ? "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened." --Romans 1:18-21 Romans 1 tells us that God has made the truth evident to all human beings. Romans 1 does not state that human beings trust in the truth which God has revealed. In fact, it says the exact opposite: they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. So, although the truth is right before their eyes, there is no faith in that truth. And, as I said before, they possess no trust at all in the Jesus of the Bible. Awareness of the truth is not faith in the truth. What the sinner does is exchange the truth of God for a lie. "We know that Abraham was not justified until his belief was obedient. " I am still waiting to hear how you fit Romans 4:5 into what "we" know. As well as God justifying Abraham before his obedience in circumcision. If you are correct, you have to incorporate Paul's argument into your thinking. --Joe! |
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3 | How Does Baptism Save? | 1 Pet 3:21 | disciplerami | 78713 | ||
Dear Joe, I think your tag name should be 'slippery when wet.' :) No where did I say that Abraham had faith in Jesus Christ! If we are going to come to the same conclusion you must be able to accept what I say without changing it. Romans 1 says that men ought to know there is a God. This knowledge ought to lead them to hunger and thirst for righteousness. If you are Abraham and God says to you, "Abraham, Leave the land of your fathers!" You go. That's the faith that saves. "Awareness of truth is not faith in the truth." There you go again. I didn't say it. The devils are aware of the truth! It's going to be easier if you just deal with what I say. Romans 4:5 says, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due." Paul can't be contradicting James. It is the "faith only" [which is contrary to James 2:14-26] who don't know how to harmonize these passages with Paul: this same difficulty led Luther to call James an 'epistle of straw.' I've heard that Luther's German translation inserted the word 'alone' in Romans 3:28 and 5:1. Followers of this tradition still read it that way - despite or in spite of the actual text :) Ps 106:30 "Then Phinehas stood up and interposed, And so the plague was stayed. 31 And it was reckoned to him for righteousness, To all generations forever." Gen 15:6 "Then he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." See any similarity? Probably not :) Since this is when God credited righteousness to Abraham, why do you deny that works are considered in conjunction with faith? Before he is credited as righteous, it says, "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:" (Hebrews 11:8-9 KJV) It is you who can't seem to harmonize Paul and James. I have no trouble dealing with Romans 4:5. Abraham believed and obeyed God. Abraham trusted not in his works, but in the God. God saw Abraham's faith and credited it as righteousness. Nice chatting with you, Disciplerami |
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4 | How Does Baptism Save? | 1 Pet 3:21 | Reformer Joe | 78720 | ||
"I think your tag name should be 'slippery when wet.' :) No where did I say that Abraham had faith in Jesus Christ!" And I never said that you did. "Romans 1 says that men ought to know there is a God." Right. And that is not faith. "This knowledge ought to lead them to hunger and thirst for righteousness." "Ought to." Check. Again, an "ought to" is not faith. 'If you are Abraham and God says to you, "Abraham, Leave the land of your fathers!" You go. That's the faith that saves.' No, that is the obedience resulting from the faith that saves. No matter how many times you repeat your statement to the contrary, faith leads to obedience, but faith is not obedience. The faith was there before Abraham acted, and it was the faith that was credited as righteousness. '"Awareness of truth is not faith in the truth." There you go again. I didn't say it. ' That is precisely what you implied in your last post: "Romans 1 says they do. On the basis of what God has revealed to all men they may be judged by God. They are without excuse. Faith that has not obeyed is a dead faith. We know that Abraham was not justified until his belief was obedient. " You said in reference to the human beings Paul mentioned in Romans 1 that a faith that is not obeyed is a dead faith. Either this sentence adds nothing to your argument, or your implication was that the people in Romans 1 have a faith that is not obeyed. You wrote: 'Romans 4:5 says, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due."' No it does not. That is Romans 4:4. Please explain the following verses in light of your "faith is obedience" theology: "But to the one WHO DOES NOT WORK, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness APART FROM WORKS" --Romans 4:5-6 (emphasis mine, so the point will not be missed again) And again, please tell me if Abraham was counted righteous before or after he obeyed by circumcizing himself and his household. A simple "before" or "after" will suffice. This will only be the third time I have asked this simple question. "It is you who can't seem to harmonize Paul and James. I have no trouble dealing with Romans 4:5." Then please deal with it. The REAL Romans 4:5. --Joe! |
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5 | How Does Baptism Save? | 1 Pet 3:21 | disciplerami | 78739 | ||
Dear Joe, When the Bible says that God has communicated to all men through the Creation (Psalm 19; Romans 1) and through the Cross of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28; Mark 16:15); and when the Bible says that all men are accountable if they are not washed in the blood of Christ; then it follows that God holds men accountable to hear and obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I can't accept this doctrine of yours that says God holds men accountable for rejecting Christ when you say that they were born spiritually dead and remain spiritually dead until they leave this planet. The only way to be spiritually alive is NOT through what Christ did for them, but only through special intervention in the individuals life. This makes God a respector of persons, and he declaration that he loves all men (Jn 3:16), desires all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4,5), tasted death for all men (Heb 2:9), Is the Savior of all men (Titus 2:11), and he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn 2:2). You don't believe any of this; unless you add a GREAT BIG qualifier on it. Disciplerami |
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