Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Predestination question? | 1 Tim 2:4 | Scribe | 84505 | ||
Unfortunately this verse will not end the debate between men on this question. Partly because the question is so often misunderstood. Two well meaning saints end up debating at length when all the while they believe relatively the same thing, but their suspicions of one another will not allow the other any good intent. This debate has been raging for four hundred years and there is no indication that is coming to a close anytime soon. There is evidence that the question has taken new shapes and forms by those that have taken up entirely new arguments than that which Calvin or others ever proposed. However as both sides (among evangelicals) agree, the Word of God is our final authority. Therefore this verse plays an important role in giving us the complete understanding of the terminology scripture uses. I will submit another verse not often used, at least not by many that enter into this discussion. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. The doctrine of the utter depravity of man is often used as a foundation to teach the doctrine of predestination and the sovereignty of God in regards to our salvation. These passages by Paul are often used among others. But the real debth of the doctrine in Rom 5:18 is often skimmed over at a high rate of speed reading. The verse (and the surrounding text supports it) says that JUST as we say that ALL men WITHOUT exception have inherited through ADAM sin and death by sin.. so in the SAME universal total inclusion ALL MEN are offered the Free Gift of righteousness, and justification of Life. There is no way doctrinally to remove ALL MEN from this saying. Therefore, you must conclude one of two things. Either all men are saved already, regardless of lifestyle as a result of the work of Christ. Or ALL men CAN be saved if they have faith. From the intellectual and philosophical, as well as the critical reasoning (so loved among the champions of this question,) this is an undeniable explanation that it cannot be just that 1 Timothy 2:4 is saying that God will have all men to be saved (who are going to be saved, at the exclusion of those that God has not destined to be saved) but by comparing 1 Tim 2:4 with Rom 5:18 we see that by contrasting the “as ALL MEN who inherit death and sin through Adam (an no champion of this discussion argues against all men having sinned) In the same way ALL MEN can receive righteousness and Life. And it cannot be in this instance allowed to insert a (all men who are destined to be saved) because the very logic of the comparison with the all men of the fall prohibits it. In this verse if the offence of one came upon all men, cannot be made to mean (all men destined) but inclusively all men who ever lived or will live (except for Christ by reason of the virgin birth), then it HAS to be that by the words EVEN SO, that the free gift came upon all men to justification of life means ALL men and not just those (destined to receive it) Now if that be the conclusion and all fair means of logic says it is must be, then are we to say that all men are saved and justified? No. Then we must conclude that all men Can be. All men without exception can be. To pick out a person in the Bible like a Judas to teach that all men are not destined to be because of the prophesy about him is not going to change the doctrine that all men are born into sin, and neither should it change the doctrine that the Justification of Life wrought by Jesus Christ extends to all men without exception.. if they will but believe. May God Bless you in your study of His Word. |
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2 | Predestination question? | 1 Tim 2:4 | John Reformed | 84575 | ||
Dear Scribe, Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Let us not compound the (alleged) problem of skimming over v. 18 by skimming over v. 17 as well. Who will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ? The answer is " those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness". To whom does "all men" refer to in v. 18? All men who recieve the free gift. The free gift is bestowed upon all men "who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." Not all men universally as a potential gift. 1 Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. If you are interested in digging deeper into 1Tim 2:4, may I suggest you read John Piper's article at http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html. God Bless, John |
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3 | Predestination question? | 1 Tim 2:4 | Morant61 | 84582 | ||
Greetings John! Long time, no see my friend! Without starting a long discussion on this issue, I do have a couple of quick questions about Rom. 5:18. Does the first 'all' refer to the same group as the second 'all'? If not, what indication is there in the text that the same group is not being discussed in both clauses? Why would the first 'all' refer to each individual, but the second 'all' only refer to some individuals? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Predestination question? | 1 Tim 2:4 | gracesdaughter | 84588 | ||
Hi John and Tim! I hope you don't mind my "two cents" on the predestination issue. Tim, you mentioned Romans 5:18. I believe both "all"'s refer to the same group of people - ALL! Here is the hangup. God almighty is omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. Try to imagine Him in the infinite past prior to the creation of the universe. At this time God could see all possible worlds which He could create. He knew if He created the world we are living in now that I would at this very instant be typing these exact words...He also knew that I would become a Christian at age 7, that millions of other people would also become Christians and that still millions more would choose NOT to become Christians. Despite the good and the bad issues of this world, God in His infinite wisdom chose to create this world of all the ones possible. In my opinion this is predestination - God knew who would make which choice, but He did not force any individuals to make any decision. |
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5 | Predestination question? | 1 Tim 2:4 | Morant61 | 84601 | ||
Greetings Gracesdaughter! Thanks for the input! If I can collect a few more '2 cents', I can buy a can of Pepsi! ;-) I mostly agree with your statement. The only point I would differ on a little is that I see 'predestination' as a reference to circumstances, not primarily individuals. Thus, it was predestined that salvation would be by grace through faith, not by works. Well, I have to get to bed so I can work tonight! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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