Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | drbloor | 171585 | ||
Dear Brad, Hello again, and thanks for your reply! As you may know, Ken Wuest has his own critics. A study of his corruption of parts of the book of Romans can be found here: http://members.citynet.net/morton/others/greekpre.htm And even a quick trip to Wikpedia will tell you that "Some critics have charged that in specific instances, Wuest’s translations and commentaries go beyond a strict analysis of grammar and word meaning, and bring preconceived theological and doctrinal considerations into the task of exegesis." Kens study of hell is a prime example of this. GEHENNA: Gehenna is a place, better known as the Valley of Hinnom. You should not translate place names. Would you translate the words Paris, Rome or London? Of course not. Gehenna is a source of misunderstanding for many Christians because of what happened there. Refuse, dead animals and executed prisoners were burnt in Gehenna. Fires were kept burning continually for this purpose. When you realise that there was an everlasting fire in a physical place just outside Jerusalem, you can see that it is not referring to any imaginary place called "hell" but simply to the physical location of Gehenna. HADES: Hades, as has already been said, is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which means "Grave". The representations that Mr. Kenneth Wuest makes about Hades are his own pre-conceived notions, and are not derived from the word Hades. The fact that Hades is used as a translation of Sheol can be seen from the Septuagent OT. TARTARUS: Strangely enough, Mr. Wuest makes no attempt to explain the meaning of the word Tartarus. I will attempt to do so with an explanation of II Peter 2:4. The misunderstanding of this verse has arisen mostly because it is taken totally out of the context of the passage. II Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; An interesting and clearly deliberate contrast. God spared not those which sinned, and spared not the old world, but saved Noah from the flood. Clearly one and the same incident is referred to here - the flood. Those that sinned were killed in the flood, but righteous Noah was saved. The "angels" being referred to then are not the angels of heaven but humans - the "sons of God" from Genesis 6:2 who "kept not their first estate," but saw the daughters of men and did evil in the sight of the Lord. II Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: Again, a contrast. Sodom and Gomorrha were condemned and overthrown, while Lot was saved. One and the same incident is referred to here - the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. Peter is therefore using these two incidents to contrast the judgment on the wicked with the salvation of the righteous. This lesson of Peters is then summed up in verse 9: II Pet 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: Thus both the "angels" and Sodom and Gomorrah are reserved in exactly the same way. His argument is that God is consistent in His judgment of the ungodly and His preservation and reward of the righteous, but he is clearly talking about judgments upon men, not spirit angels. So why claim that these people were kept in "chains of darkness"? Well chains or bonds are used in the Bible as symbols of death: (NAB) Psalm 18:6 The cords of Sheol tightened; the snares of death lay in wait (NAB) Psalm 116:3 I was caught by the cords of death; the snares of Sheol had seized me Just like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah (Mat 10:15), these people were punished with death until their final judgment before Christ. So what or where is Tartarus? Well, rather than refer you to Greek mythology, I will refer you back to the version of the Old Testament that Peter was using – the LXX Septuagint. Speaking of the Leviathon: Job 41:31 ... he regards the sea as a pot of ointment, 32 and the lowest part of the deep [Tartarus] as a captive: he reckons the deep as his range. The word Tartarus literally means "the lowest depths" and is used in the Septuagint to refer to the lowest depths of the sea. Thus it is an excellent word to use when Peter refers to the people killed by the flood. They were cast into Tartarus, the lowest depths of the sea, and killed. They remain to this day in chains of darkness (death), but they will stand before the judgment seat at the last day, just like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and just like us. Yrs, Dr. B. |
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2 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | BradK | 171600 | ||
Hello Dr.B, As you know, critics are numerous and I suspect all scholars have them:-) The internet is both a great source of information and a large bathroom wall!I don't know who Dr. Ron Powell is or what might have motivated his "agenda" against Dr. Weust. Supposing he's right- and has altuistic motives- then many of us have been duped! I guess my obvious question would be, "why is Dr. Powell any more of a credible authority than the late Dr. Weust"? Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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3 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | drbloor | 171605 | ||
Dear Brad, The way to discover if Dr. Powell is a more credible authority than Dr. Wuest is to analyse the information for yourself. I admit I have been unable to put much effort into it myself because I have none of Dr. Weusts works and only the words of Dr. Powell. But equally the question can be asked - "Why is Dr. Weust any more of a credible authority than Dr. Powell?" The more poignant point was raised from the Wikpedia page, which is far more easily verifiable. Dr. Weust in his examination of hell is clearly influenced greatly by pre-conceived Christian beliefs regarding hell, hades, tartarus and gehenna which have arisen since the New Testament was written, and quite clearly does not limit himself to an anaylsis of what the words meant when they were written. I don't need Dr. Powell or Wikpedia or anyone else to make that any more apparent than it already is. Okay and goodnight! Dr. B. |
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4 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | BradK | 171609 | ||
Dear DrB, Likewise, it would be more effort than I care to devote to analyze Dr. Powell's critique of Weust. I am familiar with Weust and have had his Word Studies set for well over a decade. I consider it a valuable work and very insightful:-) A better question has occurred to me: Why did Powell waste so much time in a critique/rebuttal to Weust's Book of Romans? I'd much rather have a Commentary on Romans by the more qualified and honest Dr. Powell-if in fact he is! I find it hard to swallow the insinuation that Powell himself has no "pre-conceived Christian beliefs" and is totally without theological bias of any sort? Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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5 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | BradK | 171615 | ||
REPOST: FOLLOW UP ON DR. RON POWELL I did a little due-diligence. I checked the source and here's what I came up with. Decide for yourself. No bias or "pre-conceived Christian beliefs" by Dr. Ron Powell on the late Greek scholar Kenneth Weust??? Check for yourself: "KJV-ASIA.COM A Website Testifying Of God's Faithfulness In Preserving The Holy Bible Unto This Generation." I don't see any bias here!?! Further: "Dr. Powell upholds the King James Bible as being the perfect, preserved word of God. He does not, and will not, go to Greek or Hebrew to correct the English Bible, even though he has had three years of Greek [4.0 average] and one year of Hebrew [4.0 average]." Hmmm... I wonder why he is so critical of Weust?Come on and stop the appeal to altruism. We all have a bias-of-sorts if we're honest. Who's the pot calling the kettle black? Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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6 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | drbloor | 171619 | ||
Dear Brad, I think you may have mixed up two separate issues here and become hung up on Dr. Powell. I introduced the critique of Dr. Wuest in order to show the fact that Dr. Wuest has his own detractors on the simple veracity of his translation, and that even other Greek translators may disagree with him. The point in doing so was to show that you cannot simply wave a copy of Dr. Wuests work around as if it were gospel truth. Like any other source of information, it should be verified instead of being swallowed whole. I then introduced the Wikipedia quote to show that Dr. Wuest has other critics who claim that he brings what they call "preconceived theological and doctrinal considerations" into the task of pure exegesis. I did so to explain that the majority of the information Dr. Wuest provides regarding hell is not taken from the Greek words he uses to construct his vision of hell around, but from his preconceived notions of what he wants to talk about. I then provided information on the words Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus, and I must point out that this information was certainly not taken from Dr. Powell, so any aspersions on his bias are irrelevant to that part of the discussion. Gehenna - The Valley of Hinnom. Hades – Sheol. Tartarus - The lowest depths. The rest of the information that Dr. Weust brings to the table is clouded by his preconceived notion of hell as a fiery, subterranean world of demons. None of those words describe any such thing. Okay and thanks, Dr. B. |
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7 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | BradK | 171676 | ||
Dear DrB, Your use of metaphors is noted:-) Might I ask why YOUR view should be the excepted one and are you claiming to be free from any bias? I'm afraid I'll need to leave this discussion at this point as I see you have an entirely different view of hell that is outside the bounds of orthodoxy! That is my bias and I'll stand on it. Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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8 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | drbloor | 171685 | ||
Dear Brad, I get the feeling I need to drop out of a few discussions around here, as they appear to have grown out of all proportion from what was originally intended - which was merely to resolve a couple of unanswered questions that had been put to me. I trust you realise however that my tendency to write whole books of answers is brought on by my absolute love for the Word of God. You are perfectly right to question my own bias, and I would be a fool to claim that I have none. What I would point out in a closing statement, as it were, is simply this: Gehenna - The Valley of Hinnom. Hades – Sheol. Tartarus - The lowest depths. That is the basic meaning of those words and as far from any bias that I can get. Anything else you read about hell has been added by a man, and we all have biases and pre-conceived ideas. After that we must all work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Thanks once again, Dr. B. |
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9 | Jesus decended into hell? | Eph 4:9 | BradK | 171697 | ||
Dear DrB, I will respect your reply on this matter and I understand the point you make. Though we do disagree, I appreciate your patience and tone of response:-) If I may encourage you, please feel free to add a User Profile about yourself. It does help in the area of both understanding and communication. You are welcome to read mine in case you haven't. Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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