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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | Morant61 | 41854 | ||
Greetings Jensen! To me, the Biblical way of understanding predestination is as a reference to God's eternal plan of salvation. Thus, it doesn't refer to determining who will be saved, but to the circumstances of salvation. There is no verse which says that some are predestined to salvation while others are not. The word is found in only six verses (Act 4:28, Rom. 8:29 and 30, 1 Cor. 2:7, Eph. 1:5 and 11). Of these six verses, only four describe individuals as being predestined (Rom. 8:29 and 30, and Eph. 1:5 and 11). The Ephesian passage is written to believers and never says that anyone else is excluded from God's plan. While the Romans passage appears to be a description of God's plan for the Jews, not a general reference. Why do I say that? Look at the word 'forknew'. It is only used in Romans and only in 8:29 and 11:2. 11:2 is clearly a reference to Israel. An interesting point is that some of those whom He foreknew (Israel) did not receive salvation, according to Rom. 11. Thus, predestination doesn't seem to refer to an individuals fate, but rather to God's overall plan and purpose of salvation. Just me two cents worth! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | Reformer Joe | 41876 | ||
Great, Tim. I was REALLY trying to stay out of it this time, but now you added a new angle! :) Do you hold that Romans 11:2 is referring to the entiretly of the Israelite race? It seems that from looking down we see it may be referring to a subset of the physical descendents of Jacob: "In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice." --Romans 11:5 and "What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened" --Romans 11:7 It seems that we have a distinction made here between those Israelites who were hardened, and those who were graciously chosen and obtained the grace. Even the OT reference that Paul makes is to the 7000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal, a subset of the entire nation. So I guess the question is how you connect those whom God foreknew in Romans 11 to all the offspring of Jacob rather than the "children of the promise" (Galatians 3:29) among the descendents of Jacob? Always a pleasure! --Joe! |
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3 | Predestination | Eph 1:4 | Morant61 | 41880 | ||
Greetings Joe! I'm glad you responded! I value your input! I understand your point about the Israel of promise, but I do think that the 'foreknown' of Rom. 11:2 is the nation of Israel. Here's why: 1) Chapter nine opens with the complaint that God is not being fair by rejecting physical Israel. This introduces the whole arguement, which we have discussed before, that God is under to obligation to include people into the spiriual Israel based upon birth alone. 2) This argument continues throughout chapter 10, where Paul makes it clear that Gentiles have become a part of this spiritual Israel through faith, while most of the nation of Israel has rejected Christ. 3) This brings us to chapter 11, where Paul deals with those of Israel who have not accepted Christ. Paul's comments have led to the question of anguish, "Has God rejected His people then?" Paul's response, of course, is no - for there is a remnant. I see the remnant as being a sub-set of the 'foreknown'. The nation still is in view in v. 7, where Paul contrasts the nation with the spiritual Israel (elect). The interesting point though is that even those who are not part of the remnant are held out the possibilty of becoming a part of the spiritual Israel - if they do not continue in their unbelief. 4) Finally, I would say that the focus of chapter 11 is more on those who are rejected, cut-off, ect..., than on the elect - With the emphasis being that God's plan is to have mercy even on them. Years ago, I came across a reference by a commentator named 'Black', who had information that 'foreknown' was some sort of title for Israel. However, I've never been able to track down his book! :-( Well, I'd better go! It was good talking with you again my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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