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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 108003 | ||
Of 1 Thess. 4:14 you said: “The text says that God will bring with Him those who are asleep, then their bodies are caught up into the air.” But where does it say “their BODIES are caught up into the air”? You are reading into the text what you already believe, then saying, “Look, there it is!” What – exactly – does it say? That God will bring “them…which SLEEP” (KJV)! Yet you say sleep is “a poetic term describing a dead body.” Does this mean God will bring dead bodies? Do you see the contradiction? Going strictly by what is written, we cannot assuredly say the body “sleeps” – to the EXCLUSION of the soul. However, we CAN assuredly say that WHATEVER God brings, THAT is also shown as being asleep. Which IS it? Furthermore, calling “sleep” a poetic term doesn’t change the image it clearly depicts. Yes, the Bible uses every literary device known – from metaphors to hyperboles – but for what purpose? To mislead and confuse? Or to clarify and teach? Does God – who is NOT the author of confusion – use imagery to imply the opposite of what he means? Taken at face value, the passage clearly depicts the dead in Christ as being asleep until their resurrection at Christ’s return. So do other passages I’ve cited. And, though you claim to have dealt with all my questions, you’ve completely ignored those regarding Eccl. 9:5 and Psalm 146:4. What is figurative about the statements that the dead “know not any thing” and their “thoughts perish”? Poetic? Perhaps. Clear in meaning? Definitely! And let’s not forget the original scripture in this thread, John 3:13: “NO ONE has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man” (NASB)! When Jesus said this, many whom we KNOW died in Christ – including King David – were already dead but not yet descended to heaven: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchure is with us unto this day….for David is not ascended into the heavens….” (Acts 2:29, 34 KJV). Here, then, was the perfect chance for one sent of God (namely, Peter) to stave off any possible confusion over the fact – had it been true – that David himself was actually alive in heaven rather than asleep, as he was implying. Instead, we find him pointing to his tomb, emphasizing that David was still dead, followed by the explicit claim that he had not yet ascended to heaven. Again, I will address all those scriptures that, at first glance, seem to contradict all I’ve suggested so far; but these posts can only be so long, right? Meanwhile I pray that you will confront these I’ve cited head-on – and that I recognize and accept the truth from God that comes through you. May the Spirit of Christ rule both our hearts, my friend! |
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2 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | Morant61 | 108029 | ||
Greetings Roaring Lamb! I pray that you are having a blessed new year my friend! 1) Allow me touch yet again upon 1 Thess. 4:14. It is not until v. 17 that the 'dead in Christ' shall rise. So, who or what comes back with Him in v. 14? ;-) My understanding of the passage is that the 'spiritual' part of man returns with Christ, then their bodies are raised in v. 17. 2) John 3:13 and Acts 2:29, 33: I just dealt with John 3:13 yesterday in the context of Enoch and Elijah. I believe that Scripture is clear that no one went to 'heaven' (in terms of what we mean by 'heaven') until after the resurrection of Christ. This would also be true of David. When he died, he did not 'ascend' to Heaven. He went to Hades like all the dead before Christ. However, after the resurrection of Christ, we are told two things. First, we are told that the Old Testament saints were raised. Secondly, we are told that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The KJV translation of Acts 2:33 did throw me for a moment. If indeed Acts 2:33 used the present tense concerning the status of David, I would have to reconsider my position. However, the Greek verb is 'aorist', not present tense. So, it is in harmony with my understanding. David did not ascend at the time of his death, but nothing in the verse rules out that he ascended at the time of Christ's resurrection. Yet, you said of the verse: "Instead, we find him pointing to his tomb, emphasizing that David was still dead, followed by the explicit claim that he had not yet ascended to heaven." But, the verse never actually says this my friend. There is no 'yet' or 'still' in v. 33. Further, the verb is aorist, not present. 3) Concerning Ecc. 9:5 and Psalm 146:4, you answered your own question my friend. They are poetic! Poetry uses word pictures to express powerful emotions. But, I would not base theology upon poetic statements. For instance, the writer of Ecclesiastes seems to have no knoweldge whatsoever of man's future destiny, either in my understanding or in yours. He sees death as the end of everything - period. His writings are not the place to find our theological understanding of death. :-) I would say the same of Ps. 146:4, except to also not that it says 'when their spirit departs (NIV)'. Where did their spirits go? I don't base my theology of death on these poetic statements. Rather, I turn to the New Testament passages concerning death. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | Makarios | 108064 | ||
Greetings Tim, That is some really good material that you have there on John 3:13! Blessings to you, Makarios |
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4 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 108121 | ||
Greeting, Makarios, It's good to know others are following this discussion. I think it's a very important one and hope others will join in. Of course, it would be nice if someone else besides me could see the contradictions in Tim's line of reasoning, as well as the liberties taken with God's word. We (Christians) have a tendency to draw conclusions from passages what is simply not written. Instead of saying, as Jesus did, "It is written," we say "It says..." and proceed to inject our opinions and presumptions into the passages we quote. I would be interested to know what you think of what I said about God not trying to mislead us and why he wouldn't use even "poetic" language to imply other than what he wants us to understand. To anyone else out there folowing this thread who sees the HONESTY in the way I deal with the scriptures, it would be nice to get your input also. Even if you basically disagree with me, what I'm seeking is direct engagement of my arguments - that is, if I make a point, don't answer a related but TANGENTIAL point. STAY ON THE SUBJECT! And by all means, give me the scriptures WITHOUT THE FILLERS! Be careful with semantics - scrutinize every word. Read 2 Timothy - especially the passages about sound doctrine, and the time when not many would endure it! I believe that time is NOW. |
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5 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | Makarios | 108158 | ||
Greetings RoaringLamb, Don't be so sure that I am taking your side on this issue, my friend! :-) Tim Moran has an excellent track record on this Forum, and all of his posts are worth the time to read. I count his posts as equal, if not better, than my own. Tim has an excellent point when he asks the question, "Did anyone who died before Christ died on the cross enter into heaven?" The thief on the cross who entered into Paradise with Jesus (Luke 23:43) entered into heaven with Jesus after he died. At the same time, John the Baptist, who was killed just before Jesus died on the cross, is even less than the one who is 'least in the kingdom of heaven' (Matt. 11:11; Luke 7:28). Everyone up to and including John the Baptist belonged to the age of the old covenant, which was preparatory to Christ. The least NT saint has a higher privilege in Christ as a part of His bride (the church, Ephesians 5:25-27,32) than did John the Baptist, who was only a friend of the bridegroom (John 3:29). John's ministry was to announce that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. The least person in the kingdom of heaven, when it is set up in glory (Luke 1:31-33; 1 Cor. 15:24) will be greater than John in the fullness of the Lord's power and glory. John was greater than the OT prophets because he actually saw with his own eyes and personally participated in the fulfillment of what they only prophesied (1 Peter. 1:10,11). But all believers after the cross are greater still than John, because they participate in the full understanding and experience of something John merely foresaw in shadowy form- the actual atoning work of Christ. Therefore, does this mean that all the OT saints, including Elijah in 2 Kings 2:1-11, went to Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:23) when they died, since the OT most commonly refers to life after death as "sleep" (Dan. 12:2; Gen. 15:15; 35:29; 1 Kings 2:10)? Quite possibly. The only "problem passages" that were stated to this conclusion are Psalm 17:15 and 73:23-24. But even Psalm 17:15 says, "..when I awake.." stating that at some point the author had to have at least entered the "sleep" of death, as referred by the other cited OT passages. Psalm 73:23-24 simply says, "..and afterward you will receive me to glory." It does not provide the same assurance as one who is 'absent from the body is present with the Lord', which is the assurance that we have while dying in faith (2 Cor. 5:8). Therefore, when are the OT saints resurrected? Tim has cited Matthew 27:56 in saying that this was the time in which the OT saints were raised, and would therefore be able to enter into His rest in heaven, once they simply passed away again. But the problem here is is that Matthew 27:56 simply says "many", and could hardly be seen as the complete resurrection of OT saints. In conclusion, I would say that I am much more in agreement with Tim Moran's thinking and conclusions than I am with yours. Blessings to you, Makarios |
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