Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | Emmaus | 64860 | ||
Orangejay, I think you have to distinguish between ascension and assumption. Jesus ascended to heaven by His own power. Enoch and Elijah were assumed or taken up into heaven by God's power, not their own. Emmaus |
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2 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | orangejay | 64863 | ||
Emmaus, thanks for the pointer. I had not considered that approach. I was beginning to think that Christ might have meant that Enoch and Elijah were precursors of Him. | ||||||
3 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | Emmaus | 64864 | ||
Orangejay, It is possible that in some respects they can be considered Old Testament "types" or foreshadowings of Christ. But Old Testament types are always imperfect foreshadowings of their New Testament fulfillments. Emmaus |
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4 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 104542 | ||
Emmaus, Your response sounds reasonable, but is it scriptural? Doesn't 1 Thess. 4:13-17 show us that the righteous dead are asleep and will remain until Christ returns? See also Matthew 24:27-31; I Cor. 15:51-54; Ecc. 9:5; John 11:11-14 -- paying particular attention to the mention of a "trumpet" in the first 2 passages. Then, read Revelation, paying particular attention to Revelation 11:15. We should avoid speculation as we edify one another. |
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5 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | Morant61 | 104544 | ||
Greetings Roaring Lamb! Emmaus is currently taking a sabbatical, so he may not respond. So, may I? I am familiar with the doctrine of soul sleep. However, most believe that the term 'sleep' is simply a euphemism for death, and not a literal description of the a person's spirit after death. There are many Scriptural indications that the dead are aware after death. 1) Lazarus and the Rich man: Luke 16:19-31 clear details an account where the dead are very much aware and active after death. I know the typical response is that this is a parable, but the text never calls it a parable. And, as you stated in your post, "We should avoid speculation as we edify one another". So, we cannot call something a parable which Scripture does not call a parable. 2) In Mt. 17:, the Disciples see Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. Apparently, they were very much 'awake'. :-) 3) In the OT, the spirit of Samuel appears to Saul. Again, very much awake. 4) In Rev. 6:9, the souls of the martyred cry out for vengence. This is very difficult to do if one is not aware and awake! 5) In 2 Cor. 5:1-9, Paul presents the truth that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. As far as I am concerned, the Scriptural evidence is best understood in seeing 'sleep' as nothing mroe than a euphemism for death, much like we say 'passed away' today. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 106823 | ||
Thanks, Tim! You make some good points. I’ll respond to them all, but it’s going to require several exchanges – and honest and fair discussion – for us to reach a unified view. By “honest and fair,” I mean we engage one another by the same rhetorical constraints. We’ve already agreed, for example, to avoid speculation. But how do we distinguish speculation from valid inferences? Frequently, doctrines we hold to are not explicitly or succinctly stated in a single verse or passage, or sometimes not explicitly stated at all. Indeed, many of our most cherished doctrines are (by necessity) derivative rather than fundamental (Isaiah 28:9-10). So, how do we tell them apart? Easy: fundamental truths are universal, unchangeable, non-circumstantial, independent of prior premise or explanation, and ARE explicitly stated; derivative precepts lack one or more of these and are NOT explicitly stated. For example, “God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16); “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8); and God “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2) – fundamental. Saying whether or not the appearance of Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration means death is only an altered state of consciousness requires prior assumptions. Neither this passage nor any of the others you cited – alone or in consideration of the others – makes a definitive statement in this regard. However, the passages I have cited – in this branch and in other branches in which you and I have had exchanges – ARE explicit regarding the RESURRECTION of the dead and the biblical DEFINITION of death. Yet I cannot seem to elicit a direct response to these passages and their bearing on this issue. Significant is the fundamental truth that our entrance into our final reward takes place at our resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). Also fundamental, resurrection is from earth to sky (Daniel 12:2; Isaiah 26:19) and not vice versa. Can we agree on these two points? If not, stop here and respond – I need to know my error. However, if you agree, please answer this: if the righteous dead are already in heaven, what need have they for a resurrection? If heaven is the reward of the saved, what purpose would it serve for God to bring them back FROM heaven and plant them back into the ground, just to raise them back up to heaven? |
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7 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | Morant61 | 106924 | ||
Greetings Roaring Lamb! Sorry it took me a little while to respond! I've been very busy! :-) Allow me to touch upon this paragraph of yours: "Significant is the fundamental truth that our entrance into our final reward takes place at our resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). Also fundamental, resurrection is from earth to sky (Daniel 12:2; Isaiah 26:19) and not vice versa. Can we agree on these two points? If not, stop here and respond – I need to know my error." Yet, 1 Thess. 4:14 says, "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him." So, the dead come with Jesus when He returns. It is only their bodies which come up from the earth. This also answers you last series of questions. The 'person' is not put back into the ground at the resurrection. The body simply is resurrected and the person is reunited with the body. Why? Because man was meant to be both spirit and body, therefore, the two are reunited. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 107556 | ||
Greetings, Tim! I’m afraid you’ve missed the point of my question and still haven’t responded to verses showing the dead as asleep prior to their resurrection. At issue is whether we go immediately to heaven or hell at death and are conscious until resurrection. The Bible reveals a God of order (1 Cor. 14:33) who marks steps in his salvation plan with well-ordered, specific events involving great numbers of people at a time. The resurrections are such events. Meanwhile, the dead are repeatedly depicted as being asleep. Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV) reads: “13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep…14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven…and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.” Notice: The dead “ARE ASLEEP” – not WERE. Also, they sleep “in Jesus.” You might say this means they’re in heaven, since Jesus is; however, when Jesus was on earth he said he was “in the Father” – who was in heaven (John 14:10-12). Furthermore, for 3 days and 3 nights he remained in the grave (Matt. 12:40). So even JESUS had to be resurrected before bodily ascending to heaven as a man. We are imitators of Christ, and “follow in his steps” (1 Peter 2:21). Also notice, “the dead in Christ shall rise first” – does it say only their BODIES will rise? No, it says “the dead in Christ” – this cannot just refer to their bodies. So, the full import of my question is: for what purpose would God cause those who die in Christ – who follow Christ’s steps – to take a different path than Christ took? Again, a God of order, he shows heavenly patterns in the earthly. The church is called the bride of Christ. On earth, the groom does not take the bride home BEFORE THE MARRIAGE! The marriage supper of the Lamb occurs AFTER his return. Why would God violate his own design? If the righteous dead are conscious in heaven, why does Psalm 146:4 (KJV) say of man that, at death “he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish” and Ecclesiastes 9:5 that “the dead know not any thing”? Finally, Daniel 12:2 says in the end time “many that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life…” If already alive in heaven, why would they need to “awake” to life? Your Brother, in Christ, RL. |
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9 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | CDBJ | 107573 | ||
Greetings, Using your understanding and philosophy, which is reflective of soul sleep, how do you account for II Cor. 5:8? 2 Cor. 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. The words, present with, comes to us from the Koine Greek. Present is the word endemeo, followed by the word pros. The verb endemeo is an infinitive, aorist, active and with pros, in the accusative case, it actually means at home with the Lord and face to face with him in person. If there isn’t some kind of an interim body before the resurrection, that actually has what we call senses or cognizance, then how do you account for all that was going on in the book of Luke chapter 16? Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Of the five senses that are related to the body four are recognized in these verses; the only one note suggested is that of smell. This is not referred to as a parable since parables never mention people by a specific name such as Lazarus. Does it not appear that since one in hell had such abilities, in the place of torments, yet his body was decaying, that believers would at least share the same or greater being in heaven with the Lord? Have a great day, CDBJ |
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10 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 108007 | ||
CDBJ, thanks for your input. For now, please see my last reply to Tim Moran in this thread. Tim has already brought up the passages you refer to and I intend to address them, but this is going to be a long discussion -- one that I've had numerous times over the past 20 plus years. I know exactly where it's going, all the arguments that will be made, all the common errors people make when presenting argument. To get to the FUNDAMENTAL truths that settle this issue is going to require recognizing, first, that beneath every belief that is NOT a fundamental truth is AT LEAST a fundamental truth (IF the belief is TRUE), and - for MOST - SEVERAL PREMISES! (Read Isaiah 28:9-9 KJV) ERROR occurs when one or more of the underlying principles is FALSE. Next, we must move TOWARD the fundamentals rather than AWAY from them, as MOST people do when everyone tries to defend his position rather than submit his preconceptions to testing. In other words, we need to be willing to be found to have been WRONG, admit when we are, and CHANGE our views. Everything Tim believes I BELIEVED at one time! But once shown the truth - after having bodly proclaimed otherwise to many people - I had to face a decision: Either come up with more creative ways to "explain" what I was holding to, or humble myself and admit I was WRONG! In some cases, PUBLICLY! For now, if you will, please see my last response to Tim, as it's related to those points you raise, perhaps it may not be obvious. |
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11 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | kalos | 108018 | ||
If you think this is going to be a long discussion, then you are very much mistaken. | ||||||