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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | Morant61 | 108029 | ||
Greetings Roaring Lamb! I pray that you are having a blessed new year my friend! 1) Allow me touch yet again upon 1 Thess. 4:14. It is not until v. 17 that the 'dead in Christ' shall rise. So, who or what comes back with Him in v. 14? ;-) My understanding of the passage is that the 'spiritual' part of man returns with Christ, then their bodies are raised in v. 17. 2) John 3:13 and Acts 2:29, 33: I just dealt with John 3:13 yesterday in the context of Enoch and Elijah. I believe that Scripture is clear that no one went to 'heaven' (in terms of what we mean by 'heaven') until after the resurrection of Christ. This would also be true of David. When he died, he did not 'ascend' to Heaven. He went to Hades like all the dead before Christ. However, after the resurrection of Christ, we are told two things. First, we are told that the Old Testament saints were raised. Secondly, we are told that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The KJV translation of Acts 2:33 did throw me for a moment. If indeed Acts 2:33 used the present tense concerning the status of David, I would have to reconsider my position. However, the Greek verb is 'aorist', not present tense. So, it is in harmony with my understanding. David did not ascend at the time of his death, but nothing in the verse rules out that he ascended at the time of Christ's resurrection. Yet, you said of the verse: "Instead, we find him pointing to his tomb, emphasizing that David was still dead, followed by the explicit claim that he had not yet ascended to heaven." But, the verse never actually says this my friend. There is no 'yet' or 'still' in v. 33. Further, the verb is aorist, not present. 3) Concerning Ecc. 9:5 and Psalm 146:4, you answered your own question my friend. They are poetic! Poetry uses word pictures to express powerful emotions. But, I would not base theology upon poetic statements. For instance, the writer of Ecclesiastes seems to have no knoweldge whatsoever of man's future destiny, either in my understanding or in yours. He sees death as the end of everything - period. His writings are not the place to find our theological understanding of death. :-) I would say the same of Ps. 146:4, except to also not that it says 'when their spirit departs (NIV)'. Where did their spirits go? I don't base my theology of death on these poetic statements. Rather, I turn to the New Testament passages concerning death. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 108120 | ||
Greetings, Tim! Remember my plea for honest and fair discussion? (See #106823) You wrote: "Allow me to touch yet again upon 1 Thess. 4:14." Then immediately jumped to verse 17! Earlier, YOU focused on vs. 14, as evidence that "sleep" refers only to dead bodies, calling it your "primary point." Then I pointed out that vs. 14 says God brings those who are asleep, which - according to your own definition - could only refer to dead bodies. Then, totally IGNORING my point, you shift focus to vs. 17!? Then you say your "understanding" of vs. 17 is that "the 'spiritual' part of man returns with Christ, then their bodies are raised in v. 17" - AS IF I HAVE DENIED SUCH! My point was that - according to YOUR stipulation that "those who are asleep" refers strictly to dead bodies - v.14 which you also agreed says God brings "those who are asleep" - he would have to bring dead bodies! After I challenge the inconsistency therein, you imply that I DENIED the difference between the body and spirit! Tim, that is simply misconstruing what has been said - by me AND by you! Also, you say I answered my own question re Ecc. 9:5 and Ps. 146:4 by suggesting they're poetic, when YOU are the one who introduced the term "poetic" to this discussion. I pointed out that calling them poetic has no effect on what they are teaching. (Again, from you, silence on that point and the reasoning I presented concerning God not being the author of confusion.) Your response: "the writer of Ecclesiastes seems to have no knowledge whatsoever of man's future destiny...," suggesting he doesn't know what he's talking about. The problem with that reasoning is that it denies the Word of that says "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God..." (I don't have time to look it up, but I think it's in 2 Tim. 3:16, or thereabouts). So, are we now free to disqualify scripture that disagrees with what we believe? Tim, I believe you're sincere and seeking truth as I am, so I IMPLORE you: please consider prayerfully whether you are being honest - if not with me - at least with yourself, and are "rightly dividing the word of truth"! It's not enough to say something is "my understanding" when holding up ideas as sound doctrine! |
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3 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | Morant61 | 108126 | ||
Greetings RoaringLamb! I apologize if my post was not as clear as it ought to have been my friend. I work nights, so when I post in the morning I am usually pretty tired. So, allow me to back up a bit. Here is my understanding. 1) Sleep is a methaphor for death, not a literal description. It is based upon how the body 'appears'. 2) My contention is that v. 14 refers to the spirits of those who died coming back with Jesus when He returns, while v. 17 refers to their bodies being raised. So, I will ask you again my friend: Who or what comes back with Jesus in v. 14? It can't refer to the bodies, because they are not raised until v. 17. Finally, as far as the poetic nature of the two verses you cited goes, you did mention 'poetic' in your post. I believe that we would both admit that 'poetry' is to be taken differently than narrative. For instance, when Jesus said that He was the bread of life, He did not mean for us to think that He was a giant bag of Wonder bread! :-) Scripture uses symbolic language many times. My contention is that 'sleep' is best understood in this way, and that all of the references which speak of the dead being alert and aware are literal. So, instead of simply telling me where I am wrong, how about dealing with some of these verses that you keep promising to deal with! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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