Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | ever neccessary/permissable to deceit? | Luke 24:31 | EdB | 79857 | ||
Tomsweetstir Let me ask you some questions, do you think it would be okay for someone to use the same tactics you employ to teach your children about Islam? If you were buying a car do you believe it would be okay not to tell you about all the problems. Just answering your questions. Take for instance you ask if the brakes work? And they answer yes, because most of the time they do. They just didn't mention that every once in awhile they don't. Or if you asked if there were any leaks in the car? And they showed you the dry floor in the passenger compartment and just didn't mention the trunk turns into a swimming pool in a rain. What if you asked your doctor how your exam went. And he said your blood test all came back fine, because they really did come back just as expected from the lab. However he failed to mention they showed you have cancer. The doctor wasn't lying the test did come back fine, and he did this because he didn't want to worry you. What would you say if some one printed books on scientology and put them in covers that looked just like your children’s text book? Would that anger you? Would you ever trust them? I have no problem with someone entering China to teach English and sharing their beliefs if the main reason was to teach English. I also have no problem of entering a country as a missionary to offer medical aid and sharing the gospel if the main purpose for you being there was to offer medical aid. If a missionary goes to teach English in Mexico I have no problem with them telling the authorities they are there to teach English. However if they are there to spread the gospel under the guise of teaching English I have a problem. They are there on a lie. You talked about success of doing it your way. I also can point to ministries here in the states that founded in a lie and are successful. Or how many ministries were thriving ministries and their Pastor and half the staff were in sin. Look at Mormonism the whole thing is birthed in lie and deceit but there are millions of Mormons should we say it must be okay since it is having such success? Success does not assure Godliness. In countries that are closed to the gospel we need to put people there that live a Christian lives for all to see and let their witness be the life style rather than what they were able to sneak in. Your statement, “Perhaps the "phrase" deceptive concerns you. What would YOU call God's tactic for "undermining" the tactics of the Satan?” Sir I assure you God’s tactics with Satan are anything but deceptive. First the Word says God can not lie Hebrews 6:18. So don’t go there! Secondly God doesn’t have to resort to deception or trickery God is Truth and it by God's power and His might that every knee will bow and every tongue confess. Satan knows and understands he is a created being and if you look at the interaction between him and God in Job you see God is still very much in control. Sir the word says we are not to judge another man’s slave. If you feel the end justifies the means and if you feel comfortable doing what your doing fine. Just don’t try to pass it off as God's highest and best. I contend that the means are just as if not more important as the end. If we expect something to end in righteousness giving glory to God we have to do it in righteousness that gives glory to God. EdB |
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2 | ever neccessary/permissable to deceit? | Luke 24:31 | tomsweetstir | 79867 | ||
Mr. Edb, please hear my heart, as I respond to your concerns. Sir, if you know anything about Islam you will know for them to “lie” is not wrong. It is not only polite to lie, it is expected. The invitation, “Do you want a coke?” REQUIRES them to give a negative answer. Twice, maybe three times, they MUST be asked before they can respond with a “truthful” answer, “Yes, please.” If you don’t ask them twice, they KNOW you didn’t really mean to offer them one; you were being polite, like they expect you to be. Neither one sees, or feels, “deceived.” I've said this to say this. Muslims lie and they and we know it. I don't play that "game" with them. I ONLY would ask one to dinner, WHEN I would follow through the whole game-plan till they accept. Then I would re-enforce it with one more, for good measure. So, if you were referring with mixing a lie with "our tactics", I have to say they don't mix, as we don't encorporate "lies" in any shape or fashion. When I sell any car, I point out every problem I know it has. After I sold my latest car, an unknown problem arose, when I found out about it, I paid for the repairs, even though I put on the Bill of Sale, “sold as is, where is.” Every car I have purchased, when it quickly showed up a problem, I merely had it fixed. It is only to be expected. Like springs the following day. :) You mentioned, “Satan knows and understands he is a created being and if you look at the interaction between him and God in Job you see God is still very much in control.” How true. God knows everything. Satan only knows what God wants him to. That's how Satan works. Had he known all the facts about Peter's faith being increased after Peter's denial, Satan never would have asked permission to sift Peter like wheat. Hum, I wonder if Satan was "deceived" into thinking it would weaken Peter? It is also true, HAD Satan KNOWN God’s mystery plan, Jesus never would have been crucified. 1 Cor. 2:8 for one place, says as much. And do you remember WHY Jesus spoke in parables? Matthew 13:11f ties in with 1 Cor 2:8. So even Jesus gave answers "in a way" they (the enemy of truth) wouldn’t understand too. In Genesis, don’t you think Joseph’s speaking through an interpreter to his brothers, “deceived” his brothers in any way? Or when he accused them of spying? Did Joseph WANT them to believe something that wasn’t “entirely true” for any reason that brought glory to the Lord, or was it his “sinful nature” that had cruelly kicked in when he had his silver cup put in his brother’s “saddle-bag”? Why did Joseph “act” this way? Gen 45:8 tells us that IT WAS GOD that sent Joseph to Egypt, not his brothers. Why did his brothers sell Joseph? They thought it was to get rid of him. They were “deceived”, if you will. That “deception” came from who? Yet Joseph’s name is amongst those in Hebrews. Joseph (the deceiver?), amongst all the other “deceivers” acclaimed in Heb 11:39 as “And these ALL, having obtained a GOOD report, through faith …” Aren’t “these”, and others in Scripture, “examples” of HOW to express our faith? I wish I had some of “their" faith. :) For too long, the “church” wouldn’t allow “common-folk” access to Scriptures. Those who “grew in their faith, like the Chinese have, read it “in secret.” China would STILL be blind to the truth had the truth not been received and believed. Presently there are more believers in that “god-less” nation than there are in this “Nation Under God.” Thanks to all those who dared to “leap over the wall”. I heartily agree with your honest assessment, Edb. “If we expect something to end in righteousness giving glory to God we have to do it in righteousness that gives glory to God.” To Him be the Glory, for the great things He has done. |
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3 | ever neccessary/permissable to deceit? | Luke 24:31 | EdB | 79880 | ||
tomsweetstir I appreciate the fact your an honest person in your car dealings. I also appreciate the fact it isn’t always wise to tell everything we know. In your story about the American and the Canadians everyone was wise not to admit one of them was an American. The men weren’t looking for Christians they were looking for Americans. However had the question been asked were there any Christians the answer could not have been no. Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. In war lying and deception is expected and accepted, in the spread of the Gospel lying and deception is neither expected or accepted. I know many people have done things believing the end justified the means however that is not what Jesus taught. Jesus said do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I think it unwise to take God’s ability to accomplish His purpose and contribute it to God being deceitful. Yes Joseph did handle his brother deceitfully and no where do we see God congratulating him for it. Your right about his brothers deceitfully selling him into slavery. However what Satan meant for evil God used for God. That is not deceit that is the awesome might of the Lord and trying to compare that action of God to man sneaking around it very different. Your example of Peter and Satan sifting him. Was that deceit on God’s part or was it His willingness to allow Peter to tested and refined by fire. A lesser man than Peter might have melted at the test. Because God knew the end results as God does not suggest He used deceit in allowing it to happen. Your example of crucifixion of Jesus as another example of God using deceit is also flawed. Was God deceiving Satan or was Satan stupid enough to think he could foil God’s plan. The instant Jesus died Satan knew he had lost, but up until then Jesus could have called for the angels and had Himself released which is what Satan expected and hoped. To claim because God is omniscient He uses deceit is not justifiable. Your story of China is interesting, however I know of missionaries that shipped Bibles into that country without deception. God made a way. One time he landed with two suitcases full of Bibles the inspector opened and closed the suitcases and passed him through. Another time a shipment of religious material marked as such was delivered to his door by a Chinese official who was to lazy to inspect it. He was always able to get into the country what he needed without deception. The use of deception to accomplish God’s plan tells me the people involved are doing it in themselves rather than relying on God. I guess that is the problem I have with your “covert evangelism”. EdB |
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4 | ever neccessary/permissable to deceit? | Luke 24:31 | tomsweetstir | 79939 | ||
Edb, thank you for responding. Sometimes I hesitate “writing” because a lot of what ones says is in their body language and you and I MUST second guess too often. But, I do appreciate your insight, and input. If you will allow me another attempt to “explain” how we differ in our “viewpoint”, perhaps you realize how much we agree over how much you think we don’t agree. Same words too often mean different things to different people. For example, if you asked me to describe myself in a few words, and I said, “I’m gay, and I was born that way. It’s a characteristic I have allowed to manifest itself throughout my life.” Would you understand me to be the joyous, merry, happy, jubilant type guy that most people know me as, since early childhood? Or would you wrongly conclude that I was telling you I am homosexual? What I mean by “deceptive”, is obviously different from what others have written about it. I agree with much of what people have stated, but, because I realize the differences in our definitions, I also agree with all I have written. They see deception as sin. As sin, I refuse to use it. I see it as a means to accomplish the mission set before us. The same as depicted often in Scripture, whether or not others see the same matters not. “WE” (the body of Christ) have the mind of Christ. I don’t have it all. You don’t have all. Radioman2 doesn’t have it all, etc. etc. But WE - you, them, me AND everyone else in the body has the mind of Christ. What God wouldn’t do with some, is different with what He does do with others. Does He heal? Yes. Does He heal everybody, every time? No. So when you state, “However had the question been asked were there any Christians the answer could not have been no. Matthew 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.” I have to say (and certainly not to begin an argument) I don’t very often “confess” to being a “Christian”. During the Lebanese civil war, when the Shiites, Sunnis and “Christians” were all fighting the other two, a Shiite girl asked a missionary friend if she was a Christian. My friend responded, Sweetie, you know I love Jesus. The youngster sighed in relief and said, “Phew. I heard someone say you were one of those Christians. You know, the ones that keep trying to kill us when we go to the market.” You wrote: “I know many people have done things believing the end justified the means however that is not what Jesus taught. Jesus said do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” It reminded me of when Peter was imprisoned right after James was killed in Acts 12. Have you ever paid close attention to how this unfolded, and the consequences? James is dead. Peter knew he was next. People are praying for Peter’s release. God hears those prayers and sends an angel to help in the prison break. Peter was scheduled to die the following morning. He KNEW that by him walking out the gates, the guards would be killed in his place. But did Peter, who remembered what Jesus had said about Jesus giving His life for many say, “No. If I escape innocent men will have to die for what I am guilty of.” Jesus had died in Peter’s place on the cross. Wasn’t that sufficient? Must more people die in Peter’s place? Yes. At least two more would die in Peter’s place and God was the one who arranged the whole plan. God did know the guards would die, right? Do you think Peter calculated that someday, somewhere, someone is going to conclude that because God helped him escape, even at the expense of two other men’s lives, that the end result of Peter’s escape justified the end result of those poor soldiers lives and that is plain wrong? Even though that is exactly what happened … the guards, who had absolutely nothing to do with Peter’s escape, paid with their lives. And God was the one behind the escape plan. Now, we might differ on what the “terminology” is concerning the end result, but the facts remain the same – here and in many other places through out the Old and New Testaments, and into our history books, and into our very lives. So, I must state that often God sees to it that the means does justify the end. In answer to many prayers, Peter’s escape was justified and in the end two men, sons of their mother, father to their children, husbands to their wives died as the result. Thus, in answer to many prayers for God’s precious word, it is delivered. I don’t know any “smuggler” who WANTS to be questioned. Many walk nonchalantly past. One friend was afraid she couldn’t hold herself together. When the guard pointed at her to stop for a search, she kept her eyes straight ahead and kept walking. The stranger behind her stopped in her place. Seriously, Edb, I trust you to understand what I am saying. Either way, I will end with this on this topic. Deal? :) |
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5 | ever neccessary/permissable to deceit? | Luke 24:31 | EdB | 79982 | ||
tomsweetstir Again I understand what your saying in most of what you say. However I refuse to assign blame for things to God's deceptiveness. In the your example of Peter did the guard die because of God's decpetion or because the guards leaders sin nature that refused to believe Peters escape was divine? Had they looked at the evidence they would have realized no man could have prevented the escape. They killed the guards not because of what God had done but because of their sin nature and their desire to appear to be in control not God. You have a very interesting view of God. Yes I agree let's let this end. EdB |
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